Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
andyh

Ball in a rolled up leaf inside bunker

43 posts in this topic

Hi,

Hope I can get some help with this.

Today I hit my shot straight down the fairway and it landed inside a rolled up leaf in a fairway bunker. The leaf was rolled up like a tube and the ball rolled into it. We could not find the ball and started lifting leaves in the area. I picked this leaf up and the ball rolled out?

I replaced the ball and played on. After the game we checked the rules and it seems that I should have been penalized 1 shot.

That seems really harsh but is that the correct ruling?

thks

andy

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Want to get rid of this advertisement? Sign up (or log in) today! It's free!

Yep, 1-stroke penalty.  Sucks, but that's the rule.

b . Searching for or Identifying Ball Covered by Loose Impediments in Hazard

In a hazard , if the player’s ball is believed to be covered by loose impediments to the extent that he cannot find or identify it, he may, without penalty, touch or move loose impediments in order to find or identify the ball. If the ball is found or identified as his, the player must replace the loose impediments . If the ball is moved during the touching or moving of loose impediments while searching for or identifying the ball, Rule 18-2a applies; if the ball is moved during the replacement of the loose impediments , there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced.

If the ball was entirely covered by loose impediments , the player must re-cover the ball but is permitted to leave a small part of the ball visible.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Originally Posted by thescarecrow

Why a penalty?

Ball was replaced.

My understanding is that the ball should have been replaced inside the leaf as he found it.  Reading the OP description this was not done, only the ball was replaced, therefore a penalty.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I did not replace it back into the leaf, so I guess that would be another penalty.

From reading the ruling I should have placed the ball back inside the rolled up leaf but could have left a small part of the ball visible. plus taken a 1 stroke penalty because I moved the ball when I was searching for it.

or could it have been replaced back into the leaf without penalty?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 stroke penalty.  You needed to put the ball back inside the leaf in the exact spot where you found it.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Originally Posted by thescarecrow

Why a penalty?

Ball was replaced.

Rule 18-2a says that if the player or caddy lifts or moves the ball, touches it purposely, or causes it to move, then it's a one-stroke penalty.

So, even if he did put it back where he found it and put the leaf back where he found it, he still gets the 1-stroke penalty.  I guess an additional one-stroke penalty for not putting it back into the leaf.

It brings up a follow-up question though:

If he noticed the ball inside the rolled up leaf before he moved it, yet could not possibly move the leaf to identify it without moving the ball and incurring the one-stroke penalty, what can he do?

Can he play it and go chase it down afterwards, confirm its his and play on?  Or find out it's not his, and return back to original spot (prior to bunker) and play under lost ball penalty?  How does it work?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

The 1 stroke penalty was for moving the ball at rest when the loose impediment was moved during the search.  R18-2a  The fact that the player did not see the ball, it was in the leaf, unfortunately is irrelevant.

The player must replace the ball.  Failure to do so is a general breach of Rule 18 which is and a 2 stroke penalty or loss of hole in match play.  (2PS total, you don't count 1 + 2 more.)

Rule 12-2 covers how to identify a ball that needs to be lifted.  If the player was able to see "a ball" after moving loose impediments, and the ball had not been moved during this search, the player would be able to then identify the ball following R12-2 with no penalty.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

A loose impediment, once moved, does not have to be replaced.  Therefore, the ball must be replaced as closely as possible to where it lay, but the leaf does not have to be replaced.  If anyone can find a decision disputing this, I'd be happy to see it.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Originally Posted by Fourputt

A loose impediment, once moved, does not have to be replaced.  Therefore, the ball must be replaced as closely as possible to where it lay, but the leaf does not have to be replaced.  If anyone can find a decision disputing this, I'd be happy to see it.

Rule 12-1 b:

b. Searching for or Identifying Ball Covered by Loose Impediments in Hazard

In a hazard , if the player’s ball is believed to be covered by loose impediments

to the extent that he cannot find or identify it, he may, without penalty,

touch or move loose impediments in order to find or identify the ball.

If the ball is found or identified as his, the player must replace the loose

impediments . If the ball is moved during the touching or moving of loose

impediments while searching for or identifying the ball, Rule 18-2a applies;

if the ball is moved during the replacement of the loose impediments , there is

no penalty and the ball must be replaced.

If the ball was entirely covered by loose impediments , the player must

re-cover the ball but is permitted to leave a small part of the ball visible.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Originally Posted by Fourputt

A loose impediment, once moved, does not have to be replaced.  Therefore, the ball must be replaced as closely as possible to where it lay, but the leaf does not have to be replaced.  If anyone can find a decision disputing this, I'd be happy to see it.

The OP's example occurred in a bunker ... and I think you are referring to balls outside of hazards.

At least I think that is the difference.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Originally Posted by Missouri Swede

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

A loose impediment, once moved, does not have to be replaced.  Therefore, the ball must be replaced as closely as possible to where it lay, but the leaf does not have to be replaced.  If anyone can find a decision disputing this, I'd be happy to see it.

Rule 12-1 b:

b. Searching for or Identifying Ball Covered by Loose Impediments in Hazard

In a hazard, if the player’s ball is believed to be covered by loose impediments

to the extent that he cannot find or identify it, he may, without penalty,

touch or move loose impediments in order to find or identify the ball.

If the ball is found or identified as his, the player must replace the loose

impediments. If the ball is moved during the touching or moving of loose

impediments while searching for or identifying the ball, Rule 18-2a applies;

if the ball is moved during the replacement of the loose impediments, there is

no penalty and the ball must be replaced.

If the ball was entirely covered by loose impediments, the player must

re-cover the ball but is permitted to leave a small part of the ball visible.

It says "replace the loose impediments", but nothing says that the ball has to be back inside of the leaf.  In fact, it says that he is allowed to see a portion of the ball.  That would seem to preclude rolling it back up in the leaf where he would be unable to see it.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Originally Posted by Fourputt

It says "replace the loose impediments", but nothing says that the ball has to be back inside of the leaf.  In fact, it says that he is allowed to see a portion of the ball.  That would seem to preclude rolling it back up in the leaf where he would be unable to see it.

Yes, a portion of the ball, not the entire ball. Also, if part of that ball inside the rolled leaf would be visible from any angle that would satisfy R12-2.

IMO the ball should have been replaced inside the rolled leaf, providing any part of that ball could have been seen from any angle. Why would the player be entitled to such a benefit of removing the entire leaf disturbing his shot? This is not what R12-2 is about.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Originally Posted by wadesworld

Yep, 1-stroke penalty.  Sucks, but that's the rule.

b. Searching for or Identifying Ball Covered by Loose Impediments in Hazard

In a hazard, if the player’s ball is believed to be covered by loose impediments to the extent that he cannot find or identify it, he may, without penalty, touch or move loose impediments in order to find or identify the ball. If the ball is found or identified as his, the player must replace the loose impediments. If the ball is moved during the touching or moving of loose impediments while searching for or identifying the ball, Rule 18-2a applies; if the ball is moved during the replacement of the loose impediments, there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced.

If the ball was entirely covered by loose impediments, the player must re-cover the ball but is permitted to leave a small part of the ball visible.

Player hits ball in bunker. Player finds ball rolled in leaf in bunker. Player identifies ball, returns ball as near as possible as found, then hits ball.  No penalty as per above, refer in order to find

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, a portion of the ball, not the entire ball. Also, if part of that ball inside the rolled leaf would be visible from any angle that would satisfy R12-2. IMO the ball should have been replaced inside the rolled leaf, providing any part of that ball could have been seen from any angle. Why would the player be entitled to such a benefit of removing the entire leaf disturbing his shot? This is not what R12-2 is about.

I would agree. [URL]http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-23/#23-1/7[/URL] [URL]http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-12/#12-1/3[/URL]

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Originally Posted by Fourputt

It says "replace the loose impediments", but nothing says that the ball has to be back inside of the leaf.  In fact, it says that he is allowed to see a portion of the ball.  That would seem to preclude rolling it back up in the leaf where he would be unable to see it.

The point is that he has to replace the impediment in a hazard.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0



  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • 2016 TST Partners

    GAME Golf
    PING Golf
    Lowest Score Wins
  • Posts

    • GPS, WHY ?
      You still need a baseline average of your typical distances to go by, and GPS helps you learn your yardages so you know what club to pull in the first place. You "guess" at all of these already. GPS just gives you an accurate starting point to work from. How can you know for sure that you didn't pull the wrong club? This is probably the most important point: distances markers on golf courses aren't always accurate and even if they are, they only give you the distance to the center of the green. They don't tell you how deep or wide the green is, what distance you need to avoid hazards, etc. They also don't help you off the tee, either.
    • GPS, WHY ?
      If you have a cell phone odds are that you already have a gps device. All you need do is download an app, some are free, and you now have a gps for golf
    • GPS, WHY ?
      If knowing the distance isn't important to you, then why would you ever choose an 8 iron for a shot instead of a 7 iron? But, if all the courses you play have plenty of easy to locate distance markers, then you probably don't need to spend a fortune on a range finder. Here's a free one: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mozosoft.rangefinder&hl=en
    • GPS, WHY ?
      As of late I have played with a few people using some sort of GPS device, which in turn  made me envious, and I have therefore been looking on the internet with a view to buying one. Then I stopped and thought, WHAT DO I NEED IT FOR. Firstly, I am not a great golfer, and the length I can hit a ball with a club varies a lot based on how well I make contact. Secondly, what if it is windy, what if it is cold, what if it is wet, and finally, what if I am hitting a ball uphill or downhill. All a GPS would help me do is estimate what club I need on a dry day, with no wind, and on a flat plain. Of course, I and can take these factors into account, in which case I would be guessing again, and then I may as well not have one anyway. Like most people, I quite often hit over the green, or leave it short, but to be honest that has more to do with my golfing skills rather than the wrong club. All courses in the UK have distance markers, and to be honest you have to be pretty stupid not to be able to work things out from there.  Needless to say, some of you would have already spent a fortune on such a device, and will reply to this post telling me how wonderful they are. So, please go ahead and convince me !!
  • TST Blog Entries

  • Images

  • Today's Birthdays

  • Blog Entries