Advise before a stipulated round

[MacDutch]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

In our discussion the OP didn't make it clear if he was trying to purposely mislead the opponent.  Also, it wasn't about a specific club selection.

I'll get to the bottom of this and report back.

No intent to mislead, but it was about a specific clubselection (I7 to not get the bunker in play). But would it be different if there was intent to mislead? Still before a stipulated round.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

There is a decision where intent does come into play, however.  In our discussion the OP didn't make it clear if he was trying to purposely mislead the opponent.  Also, it wasn't about a specific club selection.  Clearly, in my opinion at least, R8-1 is not applicable.  I think it comes down to whether or not R1-4 is.

Yes, but as you know, that rule applies during the stipulated round.

So I don't care if there was intent to mislead, as it was still outside the round.

[NM Golf]

Originally Posted by iacas

Yes, but as you know, that rule applies during the stipulated round.

So I don't care if there was intent to mislead, as it was still outside the round.

This is correct, you cannot call him on rule 8 because it occurred before the stipulated round began. I also think its a huge stretch to call him under rule 1-4 as Fourputt had said earlier.

The only way a player would be penalized would be if it was believed the statement was a serious breach of etiquette. If this is the case the committee can only disqualify him, not give him a loss of hole penalty. They would proceed under Rule 33-7.

33-7. Disqualification Penalty; Committee Discretion
A penalty of disqualification may in exceptional individual cases be waived, modified or imposed if the Committee considers such action warranted.

Any penalty less than disqualification must not be waived or modified.

If a Committee considers that a player is guilty of a serious breach of etiquette, it may impose a penalty of disqualification under this Rule.

[Dormie1360]

Got this from a knowledgeable source.

1-4 quite clearly tells us how to make a ruling if any point in dispute is not covered by the Rules .

Since the question of giving or asking for advice is covered by a Rule, a ruling under 1-4 is not needed or appropriate.

R 8-1 is quite explicit that it only applies during a stipulated round so anything can be said on the tee before the round starts. If a little bit of gamesmanship is tried, it's up to the other guy not to be put off by it.

And if I may go off topic a little on the subject of gamesmanship, I've always liked the story of one of the greats - it may have been Ben Hogan so let's say it was. His opponent had the honour at a hole with a driveable green. Hogan casually asked his caddie for a 4 iron whereupon his opponent put back the wood he had chosen and played a 4 iron instead. While his opponent's ball was in the air and on its way to being woefully short, Hogan returned the 4 iron to his caddie and took out his driver, ready to put his ball greenside.

[MacDutch]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

And if I may go off topic a little on the subject of gamesmanship, I've always liked the story of one of the greats - it may have been Ben Hogan so let's say it was. His opponent had the honour at a hole with a driveable green. Hogan casually asked his caddie for a 4 iron whereupon his opponent put back the wood he had chosen and played a 4 iron instead. While his opponent's ball was in the air and on its way to being woefully short, Hogan returned the 4 iron to his caddie and took out his driver, ready to put his ball greenside.

To me this is not too far off topic. Might cost him the hole..

8-1/9

Misleading Statement About Club Selection

Q. A made a statement regarding his club selection which was purposely misleading and was obviously intended to be overheard by B, who had a similar shot. What is the ruling?

A. A was in breach of Rule 8-1 and lost the hole in match play or incurred a two-stroke penalty in stroke play.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by MacDutch

To me this is not too far off topic. Might cost him the hole..

8-1/9

Misleading Statement About Club Selection

Q.A made a statement regarding his club selection which was purposely misleading and was obviously intended to be overheard by B, who had a similar shot. What is the ruling?

A.A was in breach of Rule 8-1 and lost the hole in match play or incurred a two-stroke penalty in stroke play.

Hogan didn't play a shot with the 4-iron. It wasn't his club selection. He could have said "let me see the 4-iron" because he wanted to clean it.

And it is off topic. The thread title says "before a stipulated round" so let's keep it to that please.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by MacDutch

Before I tee-off on the first hole of a matchplay, I tell my opponent I will hit my 7 iron to keep the sandtrap on the right side of the fairway out of play.  I do this on purpose.

Do I loose the hole giving this advise? My stipulated round did not yet start......

As your stipulated round had not started there is no penalty.

[Dormie1360]

Where have u been? This thread could have gone on for ever. :)

[Rulesman]

Playing golf in Anglesey

[David in FL]

Playing golf in Anglesey

Gotta be able to mutitask! :-D

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by David in FL

Gotta be able to mutitask!

No WIFI on the golf course. Anyway my PC wouldn't fit in my bag.

[MacDutch]

Lets take it one step further.

Still on the first tee, my matchplay opponent hits his first ball. After his hit and before mine, he says 'beware of the bunker on the right, better to use your I7 like I did,  to keep it out of play'.

The question is, is this considered advise? My stipulated round did still not yet start, so is it under the rules possible to give advise to someone who's stipulated round did not yet start?

[David in FL]

Lets take it one step further. Still on the first tee, my matchplay opponent hits his first ball. After his hit and before mine, he says 'beware of the bunker on the right, better to use your I7 like I did,  to keep it out of play'. The question is, is this considered advise? My stipulated round did still not yet start, so is it under the rules possible to give advise to someone who's stipulated round did not yet start?

His stipulated round had started. He gave specific advice. He should be penalized.

[MacDutch]

I am not sure. The reason is that if I had asked him the question, I could not be penalized (my round did not start). So I could trap him into answering and he would loose the hole.

[David in FL]

I am not sure. The reason is that if I had asked him the question, I could not be penalized (my round did not start). So I could trap him into answering and he would loose the hole.

In your example, he offered unsolicited advice after his round had started. He is in breach. If you're intentionally trying to trick him into a rules violation, it seems to me that then rule 33.7 could come into play for your serious breach? Tough to prove.....

[Dormie1360]

Exactly when a player has started his stipulated round is specific.  Decision 2/2 covers matchplay.  Also, Rule 8-1 (Advice) is very specific on when a player is liable for a breach of the rule.

If the player gave or asked for advice after his first stroke he is in breach.  If a player, who had not played his first stroke, asked for or gave advice, there would be no breach. As far as the application of Rule 33-7 I think that would be a serious stretch.  A player should know he can not give or ask for advice.  On the first tee if someone asked me for advice, even if I did not know the intricacies of when a stipulated round starts, I should be hesitant in answering.  As far as penalizing the player under R33-7 for asking,  this would be hard to prove.  I think a player who is ignorant of the Advice rule could easily ask for advice in MacDutch's example, without having any ulterior motives.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by David in FL

In your example, he offered unsolicited advice after his round had started. He is in breach.

2/2

Stipulated Round in Match Play

In all forms of match play other than threesomes and foursomes, a player has begun his stipulated round when he makes his first stroke in that round. In threesomes and foursomes match play, the side has begun its stipulated round when it makes its first stroke in that round.

The stipulated round has ended in match play when all of the players in the match have completed the final hole of the match (although a player may lodge a subsequent claim under Rule 2-5 or correct wrong information under Rule 9-2b(iii) ). With the first round of a 36-hole match, the stipulated round has ended when all the players in the match have completed the final hole of that stipulated round.

3/3

Stipulated Round in Stroke Play

In all forms of stroke play other than foursomes, a competitor has begun his stipulated round when he makes his first stroke in that round . In foursomes stroke play, the side has begun its stipulated round when it makes its first stroke in that round.

In individual stroke play, the competitor's stipulated round has ended when he has completed play of the final hole of that round (including correction of an error under a Rule, e.g., Rule 15-3b or Rule 20-7c ). In foursomes or four-ball stroke play, the stipulated round has ended when the side has completed play of the final hole of that round (including correction of an error under a Rule).

[TJBam]

First what kind of player uses a 7i off a teebox but is afraid of a little fairway bunker?

Second can we agree that our conclusion is that the stipulated round has not yet started until a player puts hit ball into play?

I.e. a little gamesmanship "you might want to kiss your woods it's a pretty tight front 9" or " I'd better be careful with my putter I heard these greens run notoriously faster than the practice green" is allowable on the practice range or on the teebox before the stipulated round starts (assume match play).