• Announcements

    • iacas

      Create a Signature!   02/05/2016

      Everyone, go here and edit your signature this week: http://thesandtrap.com/settings/signature/.
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
JerseyThursday

Orange Whip or Medicus Hinge Club in bag = 15th club?

44 posts in this topic

I fully understand that a golfer can’t use any type of training device during a round.

But, say you warm up (prior to starting the round) with something that technically you could use during a round to hit the ball (not sure why you’d want to, but that’s not the point) and then stick it in your bag with the rest of the clubs. Does this count as an extra club?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Want to get rid of this advertisement? Sign up (or log in) today! It's free!

Originally Posted by JerseyThursday

I fully understand that a golfer can’t use any type of training device during a round.

But, say you warm up (prior to starting the round) with something that technically you could use during a round to hit the ball (not sure why you’d want to, but that’s not the point) and then stick it in your bag with the rest of the clubs. Does this count as an extra club?

The Orange Whip is a training aid, not a club.  The Medicus?  Not so sure about that.  I sure wouldn't carry one in my bag.  I used to have a heavy club for winter conditioning, and it qualified as a club (8I loft) even though it had an illegal grip, but it was never in my golf bag.  Why take any of them on the course with you if you aren't allowed to use them?  The only thing in my bag like that is the doughnut that I use for a few warmup swings right before teeing off on #1.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Why take any of them on the course with you if you aren't allowed to use them?

Because it’s a long distance from the parking lot to the course. The golfer is using it to warm up just prior to teeing off on the first hole. If, for time’s sake, they put in their bag with no intent of using it during the round. Both devices have a shaft and a head and therefore could  be used to hit the ball.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Originally Posted by JerseyThursday

Because it’s a long distance from the parking lot to the course. The golfer is using it to warm up just prior to teeing off on the first hole. If, for time’s sake, they put in their bag with no intent of using it during the round. Both devices have a shaft and a head and therefore could  be used to hit the ball.

I'm going to agree with Fourputt.  There's no way the Orange Whip could be considered a club.  However, as you said, you would be in violation of rule 14-3 if you were to use it during the round.

I think the medicus is an otherwise conforming club under 4-1, but I'll defer to the equipment experts here.  If  so I'd put it in the same category as a weighted training club.  As such, it may be carried, but only in place of another club, so it could NOT be carried in addition to the other 14 clubs.

4-4a/7

Carrying Weighted Training Club

Q. May a player carry a weighted training club in addition to the 14 clubs selected for the round?

A. No, but a weighted training club may be selected as one of 14 clubs carried by a player, provided it conforms with Rule 4-1 (e.g., an excessively-weighted driver head may breach the limit on Moment of Inertia - see Appendix II ).

FWIW.......confession time again.  This is a rule that my buddies and I periodically violate.  Rather than run back to the car, we'll declare a club "out of play" for the round.  ABSOLUTELY NOT in any kind of competitive round, outside of our happy little group of course.

I know, I know......we just play a variant of golf.  I'm ok with that.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

Originally Posted by David in FL

I'm going to agree with Fourputt.  There's no way the Orange Whip could be considered a club.  However, as you said, you would be in violation of rule 14-3 if you were to use it during the round.

I think the medicus is an otherwise conforming club under 4-1, but I'll defer to the equipment experts here.  If  so I'd put it in the same category as a weighted training club.  As such, it may be carried, but only in place of another club, so it could NOT be carried in addition to the other 14 clubs.

4-4a/7

Carrying Weighted Training Club

Q.May a player carry a weighted training club in addition to the 14 clubs selected for the round?

A.No, but a weighted training club may be selected as one of 14 clubs carried by a player, provided it conforms with Rule 4-1 (e.g., an excessively-weighted driver head may breach the limit on Moment of Inertia - see Appendix II).

FWIW.......confession time again.  This is a rule that my buddies and I periodically violate.  Rather than run back to the car, we'll declare a club "out of play" for the round.  ABSOLUTELY NOT in any kind of competitive round, outside of our happy little group of course.

I know, I know......we just play a variant of golf.  I'm ok with that.

Note that the if Medicus meets the definition of a club (Appendix II), then it may well be non-conforming (hinged or moulded grip) and is subject to both Rule 4-1 and 4-4.  If a non-conforming club is carried as part of the 14 clubs, the player is still subject to penalty under 4-1 (see penalty statement for Rule 4-1).  If a player carries a non-conforming club and his total is more than 14, he is subject to penalties under both 4-4 and 4-1, ie, penalties for both breaches would be applied (4 strokes per hole, maximum 8 strokes).

The Orange Whip is a training device, not a club, and may be carried during a stipulated round.  Swinging it during a stipulated round would be a breach of Rule 14-3, penalty would be DQ.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Originally Posted by JerseyThursday

I fully understand that a golfer can’t use any type of training device during a round.

But, say you warm up (prior to starting the round) with something that technically you could use during a round to hit the ball (not sure why you’d want to, but that’s not the point) and then stick it in your bag with the rest of the clubs. Does this count as an extra club?

Orange Whip has a decision letter from the USGA stating that it is legal to carry during a round.

http://www.orangewhiptrainer.com/pdf/USGADecisionOW.pdf

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

Originally Posted by turtleback

Orange Whip has a decision letter from the USGA stating that it is legal to carry during a round.

http://www.orangewhiptrainer.com/pdf/USGADecisionOW.pdf

Good find!  No surprise there....

I wonder if medicus has something similar.  If the "club" is non-conforming, and I imagine that it is, then I think it falls into the same training device category as the Orange Whip.  If it's conforming, then it clearly cannot be carried in addition to 14 other clubs.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

Originally Posted by David in FL

Good find!  No surprise there....

I wonder if medicus has something similar.  If the "club" is non-conforming, and I imagine that it is, then I think it falls into the same training device category as the Orange Whip.  If it's conforming, then it clearly cannot be carried in addition to 14 other clubs.

If the Medicus meets the definition of a club, then it's a club - whether it's conforming or not.  Clubs and training devices are different things, eg, a training club is not a training device, at least under the Rules of golf.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[INDENT][/INDENT][quote name="rogolf" url="/t/69130/orange-whip-or-medicus-in-bag-15th-club#post_880645"] If the Medicus meets the definition of a club, then it's a club - whether it's conforming or not.  Clubs and training devices are different things, eg, a training club is not a training device, at least under the Rules of golf. [/quote] I haven't been able to find anything in the rules that even defines a training club or a training device, let alone differentiating between the two. Can you point me in the right direction? Mucho thanks.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogolf View Post

If the Medicus meets the definition of a club, then it's a club - whether it's conforming or not.  Clubs and training devices are different things, eg, a training club is not a training device, at least under the Rules of golf.

I haven't been able to find anything in the rules that even defines a training club or a training device, let alone differentiating between the two. Can you point me in the right direction? Mucho thanks.

This is about as close as it gets to defining it.  The assumption is that a player knows what a training aid is, and whether a training club is also a conforming club.

Quote:

14-3/10

Use of Training or Swing Aid During Round

Q. During a round, may a player make a stroke or a practice swing using a club with a weighted headcover or "doughnut" on it, or use any other device designed as a training or swing aid?

A. No. The player would be using an artificial device to assist him in his play in breach of Rule 14-3 , but see also Decision 4-4a/7 for use of a weighted training club.

14-3/10.3

Use of Rod During Round for Alignment or as Swing Aid

Q. During a stipulated round, a player uses a rod to check his alignment or his swing plane. What is the ruling?

A. The player is disqualified under Rule 14-3 as the rod is unusual equipment and such use, during the stipulated round, is not permitted.

Carrying the rod is not, of itself, a breach of a Rule.

If a training club is is conforming, then it may be used, but only as one of the 14 allowed clubs.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here: If a training club is is conforming, then it may be used, but only as one of the 14 allowed clubs.

I saw that. I'm just not finding anything that defines a "training club" or "training device". Rogolf says they're different things under the rules. I'm not disagreeing, because I don't know, but I can't find it anywhere. A medicus can't be conforming. The question is, can it be carried in the bag (and not used) like the Orange Whip. If it's a club, then no. If it's a training device, then yes. My gut says its a club, but I can't find anything that tells me that.....

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

Originally Posted by David in FL

A medicus can't be conforming. ....

It depends on which medicus device you are talking about.

The Dual-Hinge Driver is a training aid.

The PowerMax is a non-conforming club.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Appendix II says, in part ... A club is an implement designed to be used for striking the ball ....

What would you call a golf shaft with a grip on one end and a plastic sphere on the other? I might call it a training aid.

What would you call a golf shaft with a hinge in it, a grip on one end and a club head on other? I would call it a non-conforming golf club.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Originally Posted by David in FL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Here:

If a training club is is conforming, then it may be used, but only as one of the 14 allowed clubs.

I saw that. I'm just not finding anything that defines a "training club" or "training device". Rogolf says they're different things under the rules. I'm not disagreeing, because I don't know, but I can't find it anywhere.

A medicus can't be conforming. The question is, can it be carried in the bag (and not used) like the Orange Whip. If it's a club, then no. If it's a training device, then yes. My gut says its a club, but I can't find anything that tells me that.....

The rules simply don't feel that such things need to be defined.  For one thing, there are too many peculiar training aids on the market.  Trying to define them would take a book larger than the decisions.  Sufficient to state that if it's a swing aid or alignment aid, then it's a training aid.  For a few such, the manufacturer has requested a formal recognition as a training aid as apparently the orange whip has done.  For others, if a training aid looks like a club then it's either a club or it's a nonconforming club.  If it's a club then it counts as part of the 14.  If it's nonconforming, then it better not be in your bag even if you only carry 2 clubs.

If it doesn't look like a club, then it's just a training aid.  Anything from an orange whip to alignment sticks to a doughnut weight is a training aid.  They can be carried but not used during a round.  Personally I would never carry any training aid on the course which might be seen as a club (anything like the Medicus or Momentus, or any club with a formed grip).  I don't need that sort of grief.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It depends on which medicus device you are talking about. The Dual-Hinge Driver is a training aid. The PowerMax is a non-conforming club.

What tells us that the dual-hinge clubs are training aids under the rules, and not non-conforming clubs? That means that the driver or the dual-hinge iron could be carried (but not used) without penalty, like the orange whip....right?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

Originally Posted by David in FL

What tells us that the dual-hinge clubs are training aids under the rules, and not non-conforming clubs?

That means that the driver or the dual-hinge iron could be carried (but not used) without penalty, like the orange whip....right?

The Rules of Golf define a club in Appendix II and further in the "Guide to the Rules on Clubs and Balls" (which is also part of the Rules).

"A club is an implement designed to be used for striking the ball....   composed of a shaft and a head"

An implement with a shaft and head designed for striking a ball is a club, whether it is conforming or not.  Manufacturers may advertize their product as a "training aid", but that doesn't mean the product is not a club under the Rules of golf.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Originally Posted by rogolf

Quote:

Originally Posted by David in FL

What tells us that the dual-hinge clubs are training aids under the rules, and not non-conforming clubs?

That means that the driver or the dual-hinge iron could be carried (but not used) without penalty, like the orange whip....right?

The Rules of Golf define a club in Appendix II and further in the "Guide to the Rules on Clubs and Balls" (which is also part of the Rules).

"A club is an implement designed to be used for striking the ball....   composed of a shaft and a head"

An implement with a shaft and head designed for striking a ball is a club, whether it is conforming or not.  Manufacturers may advertize their product as a "training aid", but that doesn't mean the product is not a club under the Rules of golf.

Good point.  With some of the contraptions they have come up with the lines get a bit fuzzy, but in the strictest sense, the Medicus clubs are nonconforming clubs.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Originally Posted by rogolf

Manufacturers may advertize their product as a "training aid", but that doesn't mean the product is not a club under the Rules of golf.

A club is an implement designed to be used for striking the ball.

Manufacturers usually design their products to fulfill the purpose they advertise them for. " Our revolutionary, next generation driver training aid! "

I would suggest that medicus designed their Dual-Hinge Driver as an aid not in order to strike a ball.

They specifically say the PowerMax is a hittable club " The PowerMaximus™ is the only hittable weighted driver ......"

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0



  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • 2016 TST Partners

    GAME Golf
    PING Golf
    Lowest Score Wins
  • Popular Now

  • Posts

    • 2015 NFL Football Thread
      I'm not disagreeing with you on your other points, but in Super Bowl 12, two players split the award, so it seems they can give the MVP to multiple people, but often don't.  In 49 of 50 Super Bowls held so far, only one person won the MVP, just like in 49 out of 50 the winner(s) of MVP came from the winning team.
    • Putting downhill vs uphill (2x distance of downhill length) poll
      OK, I'm sitting at home twiddling my thumbs today, so why not do the math.  A PGA Tour player in the middle of the pack makes something close enough to 75% of his 5' putts that I'll use that as my sample.  If he has 100 five foot putts that he's going to one putt 75 of them.  Considering my video example above, he's leaving himself another of equal length so for those 25 he misses, he'll also miss 25% of those, which is between 6 and 7.  (Since it's the easier uphill putt, let's call it 6.)  That would be 131 total putts for an average PGA Tour player in Levin's situation above. (For the record, he made his second putt today.) The same PGA Tour player makes 25% of his 10 foot putts.  I would make the argument that a straight uphill 10 footer is almost impossible to three putt, but I'd probably make that argument by saying "he'll make that 99 times out of 100."  So, for that reason, let's say 1 three putt.  Regardless, it's not even really close ... 25 one-putts plus 74 two-putts and 1 three-putt puts our hypothetical pro at 176 putts total in those 100 attempts. I'm no Brain Scientist but, I am pretty sure that 131 is significantly less than 176. Soooooo, I guess I'll go with the shorter putt. Just to humor myself though, I did suggest that I was thinking about longer putts originally, so what happens if I use the same situation but go with 8 and 16 instead of 5 and 10? I don't know the answer because PGAtour.com doesn't have stats for individual distances outside of 10', but I suspect that the results might be similar.
    • New to the forum
      I have never experienced wind quite as brutal. Carts racing all over the place, I carry so the bag acting as a sail and blowing me backwards. Still, enjoyable all the same?
    • Donald Trump for president?
      I think in the end some people are desperate enough to take a job that might be like $2.50 an hour. Does that make it right to even offer a position at $2.50 because they can? I could easily say that's taking advantage of someones misfortune.  I do think wages at some level should be tied to cost of living for the area. $7.50 has much more buying power in Ohio than in NYC. Maybe tying it inflation as well.  If price of basic good, housing, vehicles, ect... go up by 2-3% a year and minimum wage doesn't. It just means more and more people are losing buying power on things they wouldn't have to worry about. Over a 5 year period they just lost 10% of their buying power. They have to buy 10% less food than before.  I think that issue might be more of the Governments involvement in controlling inflation. Maybe the 3% per year increase has been an unforeseen issue. A lot wages have been tied with a step increase by inflation. Minimum wage hasn't. 
    • Donald Trump for president?
      He may have a big ego, but I don't understand how this precludes him from being able to make positive changes. In fact, it is likely to help as he would not want to fail as President. He does not want to let the American people down, he wants to go down in history as one of the greatest Presidents ever. You don't do that by alienating the middle-class, you do that by reviving it.  Trump is not afraid to take on big corporations and the special interests like the Koch brothers. Those guys control more than any of us realize, and it takes someone just as big to take them down. Sanders, etc. will just get crushed by the special interest groups. It takes a lion to fight a lion. We're going to have to get used to his abrasive style, it will come in handy later on.
  • TST Blog Entries

  • Images

  • Today's Birthdays

    1. glinks
      glinks
      (43 years old)
  • Blog Entries