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Rule question!

post #1 of 34
4/15/10 at 12:41am
Thread Starter 
EXAMPLE: PLAYER 1 DRIVES OFF TEE USING A NIKE ONE VAPOR GOLF BALL. PLAYER ONE HITS SHOT ABOUT 20 YARDS FROM GREEN. PLAYER 1 MARKS BALL CLEANS BALL AND REPLACES WITH A NIKE ONE TOUR GOLF BALL. is this a legal move?



p.s can one clean a ball from the fairway?
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post #2 of 34
4/15/10 at 12:55am

Re: Rule question!

No and No, at least in sanctioned tournament play under USGA rules. Some local courses/tournaments (including PGA events) will sometimes employ a local rule of lift/clean/replace FROM THE FAIRWAY if it's really muddy, although other hard-liners call this "lift, clean, and cheat". In tournament play one must also use the same brand/make of ball throughout the entire round, i.e. can't use a "distance ball" off the tee and switch to a higher spinning ball for greenside chips.

That being said, in recreational rounds it usually won't matter, but say if you're playing against buddies even for a modest bet such as beers after the round, you'd better not do those things unless all parties agree!
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post #3 of 34
4/15/10 at 1:15am

Re: Rule question!

drglew is right. Normally those are both against the rules. I always putt with a ProV1x #2 and play the rest of the hole with any of a number of different types of balls (the entire hole with the same ball). Usually folks don't care if you putt with something different. The real advantage comes from using distance balls off the tee and spin balls into the green.

The other place this can come into effect is during scrambles, where a player can hit a distance ball off the tee, and easily switch to a spin ball because everyone's putting their own ball down every time they hit into the green. This is also against the rules and should be understood by all players. Sometimes they'll make mention of this during rules before the round, but not usually. In any case, it's almost always against the rules in the scramble format too, even if they don't mention it explicitly.
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post #4 of 34
4/15/10 at 1:33am

Re: Rule question!

Originally Posted by drglew View Post
No and No, at least in sanctioned tournament play under USGA rules. Some local courses/tournaments (including PGA events) will sometimes employ a local rule of lift/clean/replace FROM THE FAIRWAY if it's really muddy, although other hard-liners call this "lift, clean, and cheat". In tournament play one must also use the same brand/make of ball throughout the entire round, i.e. can't use a "distance ball" off the tee and switch to a higher spinning ball for greenside chips.
Yep, you cannot mark and lift except on the putting surface, if embedded through the green, or if LC&P are in effect. In all these situations, you definitely cannot SWITCH balls---unless your ball is lost or OB, you need to replace or drop the ball that was in play. Thus, even in a casual (but by-the-rules) round, you cannot legally switch out for a putting ball. In a casual round, however, you could choose to use a distance ball on a long hole, then use a control ball for a touchy par 3. You just can't substitute between teeing off and holing out unless you encounter a rule that specifically permits substitution (and these aren't usually situations you want to find yourself in!).
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post #5 of 34
4/15/10 at 1:46am

Re: Rule question!

I've played competition golf for awhile now... and it amazes me at the number of people who will pull a new, clean ball out of their pocket when they reach the green and have marked the ball they were using to play the hole. I'm in a club that plays by USGA tournament rules for EVERY outing... and I've already seen it happen a few times (only played two events with this club). The funny thing is... the offenders have been in the club and playing by these rules for quite awhile. They SHOULD know better. I play EVERY hole in a tournament round with a single type of ball... a Callaway Warbird Plus. Since last June... I don't think I've played a single hole with a different type of ball. I'm just used to them by now. I'll pull out a new one for every tournament round... and I'll use one that's in 'good' condition for casual rounds.

CY
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post #6 of 34
4/15/10 at 9:18am
Originally Posted by zeg View Post
Yep, you cannot mark and lift except on the putting surface, if embedded through the green, or if LC&P are in effect. In all these situations, you definitely cannot SWITCH balls---unless your ball is lost or OB, you need to replace or drop the ball that was in play. Thus, even in a casual (but by-the-rules) round, you cannot legally switch out for a putting ball. In a casual round, however, you could choose to use a distance ball on a long hole, then use a control ball for a touchy par 3. You just can't substitute between teeing off and holing out unless you encounter a rule that specifically permits substitution (and these aren't usually situations you want to find yourself in!).
As zeg here points out it is called Lift, Clean & Place (not Replace) as the ball may be placed at a spot other than where it was lifted from.

Just one clarification to the bolded sentence. There are numerous Rules that allow a player to substitute his ball even though original ball has not been lost. Examples of these are Rules 24-2, 25-1 (if original ball is not immediately recoverable) and 26-1 and 28 at player's will.

Originally Posted by kevinbomb123 View Post
EXAMPLE: PLAYER 1 DRIVES OFF TEE USING A NIKE ONE VAPOR GOLF BALL. PLAYER ONE HITS SHOT ABOUT 20 YARDS FROM GREEN. PLAYER 1 MARKS BALL CLEANS BALL AND REPLACES WITH A NIKE ONE TOUR GOLF BALL. is this a legal move?
Player is in breach of two Rules here: 18-2a and 15-2. However, player incurs a penalty of two strokes (Rule 18, last paragraph before Note 1):

*If a player who is required to replace a ball fails to do so, or if he
makes a stroke at a ball substituted under Rule 18 when such
substitution is not permitted, he incurs the general penalty for breach
of Rule 18, but there is no additional penalty under this Rule.

Originally Posted by kevinbomb123 View Post
p.s can one clean a ball from the fairway?
Rule 21 says:

A ball on the putting green may be cleaned when lifted under Rule
16-1b. Elsewhere, a ball may be cleaned when lifted, except when it
has been lifted:
a. To determine if it is unfit for play (Rule 5-3);
b. For identification (Rule 12-2), in which case it may be cleaned only
to the extent necessary for identification; or
c. Because it is assisting or interfering with play (Rule 22).

If a player cleans his ball during play of a hole except as provided in
this Rule, he incurs a penalty of one stroke and the ball, if lifted, must
be replaced.
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post #7 of 34
4/15/10 at 7:39pm

Re: Rule question!

Originally Posted by zeg View Post
...In a casual round, however, you could choose to use a distance ball on a long hole, then use a control ball for a touchy par 3...
Just to clarify, that's permissible by the rules of golf, whether casual round or not. The only exception is a tournament where the rules committe has a "one ball rule" in effect.
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post #8 of 34
4/16/10 at 12:42am

Re: Rule question!

Originally Posted by kevinbomb123 View Post
EXAMPLE: PLAYER 1 DRIVES OFF TEE USING A NIKE ONE VAPOR GOLF BALL. PLAYER ONE HITS SHOT ABOUT 20 YARDS FROM GREEN. PLAYER 1 MARKS BALL CLEANS BALL AND REPLACES WITH A NIKE ONE TOUR GOLF BALL. is this a legal move?



p.s can one clean a ball from the fairway?
Ignorant is correct. 3 penalty strokes. Even if you had supstituted a different ball after your ball was on the putting green it would still be a 2 stroke penalty for substitutioin when not allowed, but you would not incur the additional penalty for lifting or cleaning the ball.
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post #9 of 34
4/16/10 at 2:12am

Re: Rule question!

So you cannot putt a different ball on the green? I always thought you could. I have been putting a new green srixon z star but am not confident enough to hit it off the tee. I also always thought you could substitute from hole to hole, just not once you'd teed off. Learn something everyday!!!!
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post #10 of 34
4/16/10 at 2:33am

Re: Rule question!

Originally Posted by Bug Bunny View Post
So you cannot putt a different ball on the green? I always thought you could. I have been putting a new green srixon z star but am not confident enough to hit it off the tee. I also always thought you could substitute from hole to hole, just not once you'd teed off. Learn something everyday!!!!
As stated above, you can change balls from hole to hole, unless a tourney commitee has made a special ruling for play in that tourney. You may not change a ball mid hole, unless yours becomes lost.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can use a separate "putting only" ball as long as it is the same brand and model, inlcluding year, as the ball you teed off with.
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post #11 of 34
4/16/10 at 2:51am

Re: Rule question!

Originally Posted by bIGwIRE View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can use a separate "putting only" ball as long as it is the same brand and model, inlcluding year, as the ball you teed off with.
You're wrong...

From the USGA Rules Website:

If a player substitutes a ball when not permitted and makes a stroke at the wrongly substituted ball, he incurs the general penalty for a breach of Rule 5-3

You cannot SUBSTITUTE a ball during a hole unless the original ball is deemed unfit for play (Rule 5-3). You can REPLACE a ball if it is lost... but substituting a ball JUST for the purposes of putting is not allowed. You are correct about replacing a ball from hole to hole, though. That is perfectly within the rules of golf.

CY
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post #12 of 34
4/16/10 at 2:51am

Re: Rule question!

Originally Posted by bIGwIRE View Post
As stated above, you can change balls from hole to hole, unless a tourney commitee has made a special ruling for play in that tourney. You may not change a ball mid hole, unless yours becomes lost.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can use a separate "putting only" ball as long as it is the same brand and model, inlcluding year, as the ball you teed off with.
I see, so you could open a three ball sleeve, use one off tee but have one that you use to putt on ALL holes? Okay, makes sense.
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post #13 of 34
4/16/10 at 4:59am

Re: Rule question!

Originally Posted by Bug Bunny View Post
I see, so you could open a three ball sleeve, use one off tee but have one that you use to putt on ALL holes? Okay, makes sense.
As the guy above you pointed out: No. (You might have not seen it if you both posted around the same time.)
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post #14 of 34
4/16/10 at 5:47am

Re: Rule question!

Put another way, the ball you teed off with, and did not touch in the fairway, and hit onto the green, where you could spot it and clean it and then replace it in the same spot, is the same ball you must putt with until you have holed out. There are exceptions if the ball is rendered unfit for play (say it lands in the hotdog stand on a knife and is split in two,) plugs in it's on pitch mark in the fairway (you don't have to hit an imbedded ball in its own mark,) is moved on the green by another's shot (you replace it at the spot it previously was but cannot change the ball,) and probably a few other special circumstances. It must be something new if you can change brands or types of balls before teeing off on a particular hole. I know when I played in USGA events, you could not change ball brands or types during a round. Few know that there used to be a PGA rule (and may still be, for all I know, I just heard this) that limited the number of balls that can be in the bag at the start of a round. I must admit, I don't know the current details of the brand and type of ball anymore.
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post #15 of 34
4/16/10 at 10:14am

Re: Rule question!

To put it most simply, you must play the whole entire hole with just one ball. The only exception is if the ball is deemed unfit for play, and replaced. You cannot use a different ball to putt. Consider that marking the ball on the green is just like never even touching it, it must be replaced in the same spot, and it must be the same ball. The only reason you're allowed to mark is so other people don't hit your ball. Even using different balls, both same make, model, number, and markings is totally illegal.
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post #16 of 34
4/16/10 at 3:18pm

Re: Rule question!

Originally Posted by Bug Bunny View Post
I see, so you could open a three ball sleeve, use one off tee but have one that you use to putt on ALL holes? Okay, makes sense.
As stated several times... NO!!! You must hole out with the ball you played from the tee. This is a basic principle of the game of golf. You may only substitute another ball when a rule specifically allows it. That is typically when the ball is lost or out of bounds (Rule 27), it lies in a water hazard and you choose to take penalty relief from the hazard (Rule 26-1), the ball is deemed unfit for play because of damage (Rule 5-3), or when the ball is deemed unplayable (Rule 28).

None of those exceptions includes substituting a "putting ball", so each time you do that, add 2 penalty strokes to your score.
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post #17 of 34
4/16/10 at 7:54pm

Re: Rule question!

The preceding posts have been an exercise in "how to say the exact same thing in as many ways as possible." We will now return to your normal programming.
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post #18 of 34
4/16/10 at 8:58pm

Re: Rule question!

Originally Posted by mrt10x View Post
The preceding posts have been an exercise in "how to say the exact same thing in as many ways as possible." We will now return to your normal programming.
And for some people I know, that still may not be enough.
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