I'm a beginner so please tell me what is right

Quote:

Originally Posted by downtownfish 

League play for the company I work for.

Opponent thinks he looses ball. Takes a drop and hits that shot. Then finds his original ball that he thought he had lost. He hits the original ball. We(my team) had a problem with it but did not know the actual ruling. Due to time and us not knowing the ruling he played his original ball that he thought he had lost. We(the foursome) were thinking about letting him play both balls out, and let the offical score keeper rule it but due to time he played only his original ball that he thought he lost. Got a 6 on a par 5. 

If he dropped from where he thought he lost his ball, he had already broken the rules. You must replay the shot for a lost ball. This is an often broken rule because guys don't want to go back. If he did replay the shot, he could/should have declared that shot a provisional and then if he finds the first one, before he plays the provisional again from a place expected to be closer to the pin than his original ball, he can play the first ball.

Entire lost ball search must be under 5 minutes. Must declare (say out loud) that the second ball is a provisional and must say it again if it hit a second or third time as a provisional. If he put a second ball in play and did not declare it a provisional, it is in play regardless if he finds his original ball.

Once a ball is put in play, you must play it. Same idea applies to taking relief from a cart path. You can not change your mind and decide to play the ball where it was after you take a drop just because you don't like the drop.

Quick related question---"play as near as possible" for a provisional means, essentially, placing the ball rather than dropping? I had a quick look through the rules and can't see a procedure specified for putting the provisional ball on the course.

Rule 20-5 states that a when making a stroke from where a previous stroke was made, if the original was played from the teeing ground, the second must be made from the teeing ground, and may be teed.  It the original was played through the green, the ball must be dropped, and when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green.

Rule 27-2 states that the provisional must be declared and played before the player or a partner goes forward to search for the ball.  In this case, the player should have gone back to the tee to hit 3.

Decision 15/5 explains this situation fairly well.  Once your opponent dropped a second ball, the first ball was out of play, and he should be penalized for playing the wrong ball.  That would be a two stroke penalty.  However, because he did not correct the error before teeing off on the next hole, he is disqualified in stroke play.  If it were match play, it would have been loss of hole.

The original questioner talks about an opponent, so presumable it was Match Play. In dropping and playing a ball somewhere near to where he thought the original ball was lost, he played from a wrong place and looses the hole in match play, see Rule 20-7b.

Sounds like he played a provisional. If he forgot to declare it a provisional then it became his ball in play and the original no longer the ball in play. There is some information missing from the OP's question, but one has to assume his opponent took the drop from where the ball thought to be lost was struck otherwise the score keeper is a tool. Also, was this match play or stroke play?

Quote:

Originally Posted by downtownfish 

League play for the company I work for.

Opponent thinks he looses ball. Takes a drop and hits that shot. Then finds his original ball that he thought he had lost. He hits the original ball. We(my team) had a problem with it but did not know the actual ruling. Due to time and us not knowing the ruling he played his original ball that he thought he had lost. We(the foursome) were thinking about letting him play both balls out, and let the offical score keeper rule it but due to time he played only his original ball that he thought he lost. Got a 6 on a par 5. 

Well, you got some good answers.  There is some information missing in order to make an accurate ruling.  Was it Match or Stroke Play?  Did the player say the second ball was a provisional?  Did he drop the ball where he thought the original was lost, or from the spot where the original was played from?  Was the original found within 5 minutes of searching?

Regardless, about the only way I can think of where he played under the rules is if he declared a provisional and dropped it/ or teed it......you didn't say if this was a tee shot or not........where the previous shot was played from.....and the original was then found within 5 minutes from when searching had begun.  Anything else and  I can tell you the guy didn't get a 6..........unless maybe if he was your boss.  

Also FYI, playing a second ball is not allowed under match play rules.....only stroke play.

Questions on the subject. From my understanding, if you play a provisional and find your original ball, you are required to play the original. 

Let's say I shank a drive 60 yards into some really thick weeds (not hazard) and hit a provisional. The provisional goes 350 yds straight down the middle. Can I just not go look for the original? Can my opponent search for it? If my opponent were to find it could he force me to acknowledge it being mine? 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jefferey13 

Let's say I shank a drive 60 yards into some really thick weeds (not hazard) and hit a provisional. The provisional goes 350 yds straight down the middle. Can I just not go look for the original? Can my opponent search for it? If my opponent were to find it could he force me to acknowledge it being mine? 

Yes, Yes, and Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jefferey13 

Questions on the subject. From my understanding, if you play a provisional and find your original ball, you are required to play the original. 

 

Good Lord!   Where do people get their information from?

What do you think the word "provisional" means in a non golfing context?

It wouldn't be a "provisional" if he couldn't find his first one and play it.

But.....if the first one goes in a hazard, he can't find it and then play it. The other ball is the one in play.

If you know or are virtually certain that the ball is in a water hazard then you must proceed under rule 26 and abandon the provisional.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shorty 

Good Lord!   Where do people get their information from?

Woah, woah! Swing easy there, Shorty!

No obligation to look for the original, but if it's found before you make a stroke past it with the provisional, the provisional is abandoned.

The basic rule with provisionals is that you're not allowed to use them in a situation where you know the outcome of the provisional stroke before you decide whether to use it. This is why water hazard rules don't permit one (with an occasional, but restricted, exception---I believe it's that you lose the option to take a drop if you play the provisional. This is rare, in any case.)

Not looking for the ball is a bit of an exception to this principle, but as was answered above, your opponent can still try to find your original and you'd be forced to ID and play it.

A Provisional Ball can be played for only two reasons:

1) A ball that may be lost outside a hazard.

2) A ball that may be out of bounds.

After having played a provisional ball, the provisional must be abandoned if your original ball is found within 5 minutes of searching.  Doesn't matter who finds it or whether of not you actually want someone to find it.

However, if you continue to play your provisional, making a stroke at your provisional from a place where the original is likely to be, or a place closer to the hole than that place, then your original is lost.  Once you have done this, doesn't matter if the original ball is subsequently found within the 5 minute search period, it's still deemed to be lost.

Here are 3 decisions that address some of the things that can come up when dealing with the above.

WHEN PROVISIONAL BALL BECOMES BALL IN PLAY

27-2b/1

Continuation of Play with Provisional Ball Without Searching for Original Ball

Q.At a par-3 hole, a player hits his tee shot into dense woods. He then hits a provisional ball which comes to rest near the hole. In view of the position of the provisional ball, the player does not wish to find his original ball. He does not search for it and walks directly towards his provisional ball to continue play with it. His opponent (or fellow-competitor) believes it would be beneficial to him if the original ball were found. May the opponent (or fellow-competitor) search for the player's ball?

A.Yes. In equity (Rule 1-4), he may search for five minutes provided that in the meantime the player does not play a stroke with the provisional ball, it being nearer the hole than the place where the original ball is likely to be. The player is entitled to play such a stroke. If he does, the original ball is then lost under Rule 27-2b and further search for it would serve no purpose. In match play, if the player so proceeds and his provisional ball is closer to the hole than his opponent's ball, his opponent may recall the stroke (Rule 10-1c). However, recalling the stroke would not change the status of the original ball, which was lost when the provisional ball was played out of turn. See also Decision 27-2c/2.

27-2c/2

Ball Believed to Be Original Found; Player Wishes to Ignore It and Continue Play with Provisional Ball

Q.At a par-3 hole, a player plays his tee shot into a heavy thicket. Since his ball may be lost, he hits a provisional ball that comes to rest near the hole. In the circumstances, it is advantageous to the player not to find his original ball. Accordingly, the player does not search for the original ball and walks directly toward his provisional ball. While the player is on his way to his provisional ball, a ball believed to be his original is found. The player is advised that his original ball may have been found. May the player ignore this ball and continue play with the provisional ball?

A.No. The player must inspect the ball that has been found and, if it is the player's original ball, he must continue play with it (or proceed under the unplayable ball Rule). The provisional ball must be abandoned - Rule27-2c. See also Decision 27-2b/1.

1-1/3

Player Discovers Original Ball in Hole after Searching Five Minutes And then Continuing Play with Provisional Ball

Q.At a par-3 hole, a player, believing his original ball may be lost, plays a provisional ball. He searches five minutes for the original ball and then plays the provisional ball onto the green. At that point, the original ball is found in the hole. What is the ruling?

A.The player's score is 1. The play of the hole was completed when the player holed the original ball (Rule 1-1).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dormie1360 

A Provisional Ball can be played for only two reasons:

 

1) A ball that may be lost outside a hazard.

2) A ball that may be out of bounds.

 

So which takes precedent?

We have a hole where a hooked tee shot will either go in a red staked hazard, or go over the fence the farside of the hazard at which point it's OOB. To add to the fun the area where this is likely to happen is unsighted from the tee and there are mature (large) trees running along the fence/OOB line, so a ball that may be obviously heading OOB may hit a tree and drop in the hazard.

My understanding of the rules is that we shouldn't play a provisional because the ball may be in a hazard. However, we cannot assume the ball is lost in the hazard without someone being able to identify it going in the hazard. So if we can't find the ball then we have to assume that it is OOB or lost and then go back and play 3 from the tee. This does wonders for the pace of play.

Am I right in my thoughts? The club are obviously aware of it as an issue as when we had a regional PGA comp here last year they changed the hazard to OOB down past driving length.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wansteadimp 

So which takes precedent?

 

We have a hole where a hooked tee shot will either go in a red staked hazard, or go over the fence the farside of the hazard at which point it's OOB. To add to the fun the area where this is likely to happen is unsighted from the tee and there are mature (large) trees running along the fence/OOB line, so a ball that may be obviously heading OOB may hit a tree and drop in the hazard.

 

My understanding of the rules is that we shouldn't play a provisional because the ball may be in a hazard. However, we cannot assume the ball is lost in the hazard without someone being able to identify it going in the hazard. So if we can't find the ball then we have to assume that it is OOB or lost and then go back and play 3 from the tee. This does wonders for the pace of play.

 

Am I right in my thoughts? The club are obviously aware of it as an issue as when we had a regional PGA comp here last year they changed the hazard to OOB down past driving length.

You may play a provisional if your ball MIGHT be lost outside a hazard or MIGHT be OB.  In your example, where you can not see where the ball ended up.  You can play a provisional because your ball MIGHT be lost outside the hazard.

Here's the thing however.  Because you don't know for sure if your ball is lost outside the hazard or inside the hazard, you need to find it within 5 minutes, otherwise it's lost.

You can not ASSUME your ball is in the hazard if you don't find it.  You must have VIRTUAL CERTAINTY that your ball is in the hazard in order to drop using the hazard rule.

In your example, you don't have virtual certainty that the ball is in the hazard. 

So, you can play a provisional in your example.  If you then find your ball in the hazard within 5 minutes, your provisional is abandoned and you play your original ball under Rule 26 Water Hazard.  If you do not find your original, your provisional becomes your ball in play, the original is lost under rule 27.

This scenario is often played incorrectly in casual golf.  The concept of Known or Virtual Certainty with regards to Water Hazards is not commonly followed correctly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dormie1360 

 

You may play a provisional if your ball MIGHT be lost outside a hazard or MIGHT be OB.  In your example, where you can not see where the ball ended up.  You can play a provisional because your ball MIGHT be lost outside the hazard.

 

Here's the thing however.  Because you don't know for sure if your ball is lost outside the hazard or inside the hazard, you need to find it within 5 minutes, otherwise it's lost.

You can not ASSUME your ball is in the hazard if you don't find it.  You must have VIRTUAL CERTAINTY that your ball is in the hazard in order to drop using the hazard rule.

 

In your example, you don't have virtual certainty that the ball is in the hazard. 

 

So, you can play a provisional in your example.  If you then find your ball in the hazard within 5 minutes, your provisional is abandoned and you play your original ball under Rule 26 Water Hazard.  If you do not find your original, your provisional becomes your ball in play, the original is lost under rule 27.

 

This scenario is often played incorrectly in casual golf.  The concept of Known or Virtual Certainty with regards to Water Hazards is not commonly followed correctly.

Thanks for this. Presumably finding the ball in the hazard, or someone playing a parallel hole confirming they saw it enter the hazard is sufficient.

Our club rules know it all always claims that if you find the ball in the hazard after hitting the provisional then the provisional is your ball in play, presumably because that is one of your options for a ball in a hazard. This always seemed extreme and wrong, thanks for clearing it up.