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Integrity in the U.S. Junior Amateur

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 

I'm sure some of you caught this live like I did.  This kid was raised by a good set of parents.  He showed integrity at the highest level of his game at his age.  Whether or not someone would've caught it on TV or in person I don't know.  But it was amazing to see a young man display such honesty.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highschool-prep-rally/mississippi-teen-falls-final-hole-prestigious-u-junior-095716326.html

 

Find video embedded in the article.  After watching it a few times I didn't hardly notice the ball move at all.

 

What were his other options?  Did he have any?  Relief due to sprinklerhead?  Etc?

post #2 of 23

Great story, albeit a sad story.

 

I hate to see anybody lose that way.

 

No way to know (if we didn't have the benefit of hindsight) whether he could have or should have have tried to get relief. Didn't look like he was entitled to relief with a normal stance anyway. He may have liked the ball where it was instead of taking chances with a drop even if he "fudged" his stance a little to convince an official to give him relief. No way to know the ball was going to move so it was just bad luck at a big moment.

 

I'll look forward to watching him play for my favorite university. c3_clap.gif

post #3 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS256 View Post

Great story, albeit a sad story.

 

I hate to see anybody lose that way.

 

No way to know (if we didn't have the benefit of hindsight) whether he could have or should have have tried to get relief. Didn't look like he was entitled to relief with a normal stance anyway. He may have liked the ball where it was instead of taking chances with a drop even if he "fudged" his stance a little to convince an official to give him relief. No way to know the ball was going to move so it was just bad luck at a big moment.

 

I'll look forward to watching him play for my favorite university. c3_clap.gif

 

Yeah, I heard what school he chose. Poor guy.  It is a good thing he has integrity because he obviously is lacking in other departments!  b2_tongue.gif

post #4 of 23

This is a stupid penalty that shouldn't even exist in the game.  A miniscule ball movement because of a crap lie isn't a player's fault, nor does it provide any sort of meaningful advantage.  Add this to the list of moronic golf rules which include such stupidity as having to play out of a divot in the fairway, yet when a ball is plugged in the fairway, it can be lifted and dropped out of the pitch mark.

post #5 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by bridiefree View Post

This is a stupid penalty that shouldn't even exist in the game.  A miniscule ball movement because of a crap lie isn't a player's fault, nor does it provide any sort of meaningful advantage.  Add this to the list of moronic golf rules which include such stupidity as having to play out of a divot in the fairway, yet when a ball is plugged in the fairway, it can be lifted and dropped out of the pitch mark.

 

Define a divot. And then write the rule that says if your ball hits a tree and is deflected into the fairway, that you've gotta put it back in the trees, because good luck shouldn't exist if bad luck is legislated out, too.

 

Don't actually do either of those things. They're off topic and rhetorical.

post #6 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by bridiefree View Post

This is a stupid penalty that shouldn't even exist in the game.  A miniscule ball movement because of a crap lie isn't a player's fault, nor does it provide any sort of meaningful advantage.  Add this to the list of moronic golf rules which include such stupidity as having to play out of a divot in the fairway, yet when a ball is plugged in the fairway, it can be lifted and dropped out of the pitch mark.

You don't believe there should be a penalty associated with causing your ball to move?

Huh..... b3_huh.gif
post #7 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post


You don't believe there should be a penalty associated with causing your ball to move?

Huh..... b3_huh.gif

 

I don't. I mean, I won't argue with the rule, as I've called myself out on it and added strokes before, but that's the crappiest rule IMO. I can see the reasons for the others...but a ball moves a fraction of a centimeter...it's not going to affect the lie, the shot, or give the player any kind of advantage. If it moves an inch, sure...but if you need an HD camera in slow motion for people to see it, nah...no penalty. I'm sure I'll catch flak for it, but it's just one man's opinion.

post #8 of 23

Do you think the rule should read "you can move the ball a little, but not a lot"?   That tends to be what people mean when they complain about being penalized for a small movement of the ball, whether on the green or elsewhere.....  Where do you draw the line?  An inch?  Now it becomes ok if you move it 7/8 of an inch, but that extra 1/8 is "too much"?   Sorry, but the only way the rule works is as written, you can't cause your ball to move.

 

I was happy to see the change this past year removing the penalty if it's virtually certain that the player did not cause the movement......such as when the wind causes the ball to move.  Good change there!

post #9 of 23

Couldnt even tell the ball moved. If I was him I wouldnt have said anything. If someone calls me on it then I would say we need video review for proof. On the video review they wouldnt have been able to prove anything.

post #10 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post

 

I don't. I mean, I won't argue with the rule, as I've called myself out on it and added strokes before, but that's the crappiest rule IMO. I can see the reasons for the others...but a ball moves a fraction of a centimeter...it's not going to affect the lie, the shot, or give the player any kind of advantage.

 

Please define the appropriate distance - and how one can quickly measure it on the golf course - for when every shot or lie IS affected.

 

In other words, rules tend to favor lines, not grey areas. "Did the ball move?" is more of a line than the grey area "did the ball move enough to change the shot."

 

By definition, movement changes the lie and the shot.

post #11 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

Please define the appropriate distance - and how one can quickly measure it on the golf course - for when every shot or lie IS affected.

 

In other words, rules tend to favor lines, not grey areas. "Did the ball move?" is more of a line than the grey area "did the ball move enough to change the shot."

 

By definition, movement changes the lie and the shot.

 

If the ball actually moves. Changes its location. Not a tiny jostling that results in the ball staying in the same exact location. If its accidental movement that doesn't change the balls location or lie, what's the advantage? Can you answer that?

 

I understand your point, but some of you guys refuse to disagree with anything in the USGA rules book like it's the Bible...if anyone disagrees it's like time stops...

post #12 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by kw purp View Post

Couldnt even tell the ball moved. If I was him I wouldnt have said anything. If someone calls me on it then I would say we need video review for proof. On the video review they wouldnt have been able to prove anything.

 

Just because I disagree with the rule, doesn't mean you can ignore it. If he saw it move, he has to report it. He did the right thing.

 

With that said, the ball movement affected absolutely nothing...you would need an HD high speed camera to notice it...no way that affected the lie, distance, angle, etc.,

post #13 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post

If the ball actually moves. Changes its location. Not a tiny jostling that results in the ball staying in the same exact location. If its accidental movement that doesn't change the balls location or lie, what's the advantage? Can you answer that?

I understand your point, but some of you guys refuse to disagree with anything in the USGA rules book like it's the Bible...if anyone disagrees it's like time stops...

There is no penalty if the ball does not change position.....

It's also worth noting that he didn't need a high def camera/tv to see the movement. a2_wink.gif
post #14 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post


There is no penalty if the ball does not change position.....

It's also worth noting that he didn't need a high def camera/tv to see the movement. a2_wink.gif

 

Well then I agree with the rule, and have been playing it/understanding it wrong the whole time.

 

I'm just full of wrong this week lol.

 

I was under the impression that any ball movement, even if it ends up staying in the same spot, is a penalty...

post #15 of 23

The young man showed remarkable character in calling the infraction on himself and as others have pointed out, he did so according to the letter of the rule.   It was unfortunate and I wish that the "spirit" of the rule could be applied instead as I'm sure the rule was written to keep the integrity of competition true and fair, meaning that no one would gain an unfair advantage.  As others have pointed out this would bring subjectivity into the game which could introduce bias.  I'm sure the ultimate winner of the match didn't want to win on a technicality either (although, he pretty much had the match in hand).  Still, I think in some instances the fairest thing to do is to apply a more liberal judgement.

 

I'm sure my opinion isn't a popular one and I'm positive that it goes against the rules of golf but that's okay with me. a2_wink.gif

Hit 'em long and straight.

post #16 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post

 

 

I'm just full of wrong this week lol.

 

 

LOL.  Get it out of your system before this weekend.  I'm counting on you to kick some butt on Saturday!  a3_biggrin.gif

post #17 of 23

Good on him for calling it. I've had to do it in a tournament before. One particular time, my ball was sitting up in some rough by the green. I set up and put my wedge about 2 inches behind the ball without touching the ground for fear that it would move. I checked the target and looked back down, and the ball had settled down in the rough. There was no one within 20 yards of me, and the guys I was playing with were across the green and couldn't see the ball because of a mound. Still the right thing to do. 

post #18 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

 

LOL.  Get it out of your system before this weekend.  I'm counting on you to kick some butt on Saturday!  a3_biggrin.gif

 

That's the plan. It's the longest course I'll have ever played on, So I'm interested to see how it goes. Most of the par 5s are just not even reachable. There's no way I'm hitting a 595 yard par 5 in two shots unless there's a 20 mph headwind and I hit two of the greatest shots of my life consecutively. May actually play to my advantage haha.

 

But the longer 440ish par 4s shouldn't be an issue.

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