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Reason for keeping the clubhead inside the hand plane on the downswing

Slowcelica

By Slowcelica,
in Instruction and Playing Tips

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Slowcelica Great Member

Slowcelica

I have a question, I watch Mark Crossfield's YouTube videos from time to time, and I have seen him recommend keeping the club head under the hand plane in the downswing. I know it would be bad to go outside the hand plane because that is an over the top swing, but what does going under the hand plane get you?

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iacas Hall of Fame Member

iacas

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I have a question, I watch Mark Crossfield's YouTube videos from time to time, and I have seen him recommend keeping the club head under the hand plane in the downswing. I know it would be bad to go outside the hand plane because that is an over the top swing, but what does going under the hand plane get you?

I'd suggest that going under the plane is bad too, though very few people do it. I prefer a swing that's more ONline than INward or OUTward.

If your clubhead gets too far inside the hands the path will tend to be very far to the right and often AoA becomes shallow and low point control becomes more difficult.

Erik J. Barzeski — ⛳ I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • Author, Lowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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nevets88 Incredible Member

nevets88

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I'd suggest that going under the plane is bad too, though very few people do it. I prefer a swing that's more ONline than INward or OUTward.

If your clubhead gets too far inside the hands the path will tend to be very far to the right and often AoA becomes shallow and low point control becomes more difficult.

@iacas , in general, the more shallow, the more forward the low point? Or the low point gets more elevated - thin shots?

Steve

Kill slow play. Allow walking. Reduce ineffective golf instruction. Use environmentally friendly course maintenance.

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iacas Hall of Fame Member

iacas

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@iacas, in general, the more shallow, the more forward the low point?

The opposite is true. The more you swing left ("INward" for a righty), the easier it is to move the low point forward. That's part of the reason so many hackers have over-the-top moves. If they didn't, they'd NEVER hit a ball close to solid.

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Erik J. Barzeski — ⛳ I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • Author, Lowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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14ledo81 Super Member

14ledo81

The opposite is true. The more you swing left ("INward" for a righty), the easier it is to move the low point forward. That's part of the reason so many hackers have over-the-top moves. If they didn't, they'd NEVER hit a ball close to solid.

This is interesting and something I suspected was happening with my own swing.  I definitely felt it was easier to move low point forward while swinging left.  This does not really help me though.  When I try to swing more right I struggle with fat shots.

What do I need to do more of to move low point forward while swinging right?

-Matt-

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nevets88 Incredible Member

nevets88

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This is interesting and something I suspected was happening with my own swing.  I definitely felt it was easier to move low point forward while swinging left.  This does not really help me though.  When I try to swing more right I struggle with fat shots.

What do I need to do more of to move low point forward while swinging right?

I suspect weight forward is going to be part of the answer?

Steve

Kill slow play. Allow walking. Reduce ineffective golf instruction. Use environmentally friendly course maintenance.

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iacas Hall of Fame Member

iacas

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This is interesting and something I suspected was happening with my own swing.  I definitely felt it was easier to move low point forward while swinging left.  This does not really help me though.  When I try to swing more right I struggle with fat shots.

What do I need to do more of to move low point forward while swinging right?

Keys 2 and 3. And possibly 1. :)

Erik J. Barzeski — ⛳ I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • Author, Lowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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Slowcelica Great Member

Slowcelica

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Maybe I miss understood what he was saying, or didn't explain it in the correct terms. The guy he was helping with his swing was swinging with the club outside of his hand plane, and I think he was just trying to get him to swing on the same plane as his hands. Here is the link to the vid it's about 13:30 where he starts talking about it. [VIDEO]http://youtu.be/CYwqVJgr8RE?t=13m30s[/VIDEO]
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Slowcelica Great Member

Slowcelica

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Thanks long but exactly the explanation I was looking for. Basically if you drop the club head inside at impact the torque will help to square the club face. I'm going to give this a shot because I have trouble squaring the club face especially with my driver.
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PingG10guy Newbie

PingG10guy

The answer :

Wait...so the models discussed are concerned with forces operating inline with the plane (or handpath), but the reverse roll of the forearms (teeacing it) causes the tumble?  Those forces dont operate inline with the plane.  Or maybe these guys are having a hard time explaining this stuff on a simple level...

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parallax Member

parallax

The simple answer, as I understand it, is that the club head path being above or below (inside or outside) of the hand path, creates a moment arm, that causes the forearms and club to rotate.

When the club head path is below the hand path, the moment arm, causes the club to rotate square (or closed); when the club head path is above the hand path, it causes the club to rotate open.

AFAIK....

Ian

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iacas Hall of Fame Member

iacas

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When the club head path is below the hand path, the moment arm, causes the club to rotate closed; when the club head path is above the hand path, it causes the club to rotate open.

That's pretty much it, except that the body may or may not do those things. There's a torque in each of those directions (I changed your "square" to say "closed" for consistency), yes, but it's small and the actual rotation of your forearms, wrists, etc. often play a much larger role in this.

In layman's terms (kind of):

  • A clubhead under the hands plane tends to be more open and as the forces attempt to shift it towards inline with the hands path/plane, it will try to twist the face in the closed direction.
  • A clubhead above the hands plane tends to be more closed and as the forces attempt to shift it towards inline with the hands path/plane, it will try to twist the face in the open direction.

It's not a big force, though, and I will re-iterate what I think I said above: I prefer a swing that's more ONline than INward or OUTward.

Erik J. Barzeski — ⛳ I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • Author, Lowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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PingG10guy Newbie

PingG10guy

Iacas would you care to share anything on the "loading" of the moment arm? Robert rock for example...butt of the club pointing inside the ball from dtl at A3 (p3 in 5sk?). What has to happen from A3-A5 to get the Ch "online"?
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iacas Hall of Fame Member

iacas

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What has to happen from A3-A5 to get the Ch "online"?

Those are primarily positions we use to discuss the downswing. They don't really have any relation to the backswing, and PGA Tour players range from Ray Floyd to Rickie Fowler/Ryan Moore.

Originally Posted by PingG10guy

Iacas would you care to share anything on the "loading" of the moment arm? Robert rock for example...butt of the club pointing inside the ball from dtl at A3 (p3 in 5sk?).

See the above - we don't really care about the backswing unless it's causing problems with the downswing. I will also say that a lot of players go from steep (relatively, bear in mind) to shallow (again, relatively) in transition.

Erik J. Barzeski — ⛳ I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • Author, Lowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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