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Reason for keeping the clubhead inside the hand plane on the downswing

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 

I have a question, I watch Mark Crossfield's YouTube videos from time to time, and I have seen him recommend keeping the club head under the hand plane in the downswing. I know it would be bad to go outside the hand plane because that is an over the top swing, but what does going under the hand plane get you?

post #2 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowcelica View Post
 

I have a question, I watch Mark Crossfield's YouTube videos from time to time, and I have seen him recommend keeping the club head under the hand plane in the downswing. I know it would be bad to go outside the hand plane because that is an over the top swing, but what does going under the hand plane get you?

 

I'd suggest that going under the plane is bad too, though very few people do it. I prefer a swing that's more ONline than INward or OUTward.

 

If your clubhead gets too far inside the hands the path will tend to be very far to the right and often AoA becomes shallow and low point control becomes more difficult.

post #3 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

I'd suggest that going under the plane is bad too, though very few people do it. I prefer a swing that's more ONline than INward or OUTward.

 

If your clubhead gets too far inside the hands the path will tend to be very far to the right and often AoA becomes shallow and low point control becomes more difficult.

 

 @iacas, in general, the more shallow, the more forward the low point? Or the low point gets more elevated - thin shots?

post #4 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevets88 View Post
 

@iacas, in general, the more shallow, the more forward the low point?

 

The opposite is true. The more you swing left ("INward" for a righty), the easier it is to move the low point forward. That's part of the reason so many hackers have over-the-top moves. If they didn't, they'd NEVER hit a ball close to solid.

post #5 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

The opposite is true. The more you swing left ("INward" for a righty), the easier it is to move the low point forward. That's part of the reason so many hackers have over-the-top moves. If they didn't, they'd NEVER hit a ball close to solid.

This is interesting and something I suspected was happening with my own swing.  I definitely felt it was easier to move low point forward while swinging left.  This does not really help me though.  When I try to swing more right I struggle with fat shots.

 

What do I need to do more of to move low point forward while swinging right?

post #6 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by 14ledo81 View Post
 

This is interesting and something I suspected was happening with my own swing.  I definitely felt it was easier to move low point forward while swinging left.  This does not really help me though.  When I try to swing more right I struggle with fat shots.

 

What do I need to do more of to move low point forward while swinging right?

 

I suspect weight forward is going to be part of the answer?

post #7 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by 14ledo81 View Post
 

This is interesting and something I suspected was happening with my own swing.  I definitely felt it was easier to move low point forward while swinging left.  This does not really help me though.  When I try to swing more right I struggle with fat shots.

 

What do I need to do more of to move low point forward while swinging right?

 

Keys 2 and 3. And possibly 1. :)

post #8 of 16
Thread Starter 
Maybe I miss understood what he was saying, or didn't explain it in the correct terms. The guy he was helping with his swing was swinging with the club outside of his hand plane, and I think he was just trying to get him to swing on the same plane as his hands.

Here is the link to the vid it's about 13:30 where he starts talking about it.
post #9 of 16
The answer :

post #10 of 16
Thread Starter 
Thanks long but exactly the explanation I was looking for. Basically if you drop the club head inside at impact the torque will help to square the club face. I'm going to give this a shot because I have trouble squaring the club face especially with my driver.
post #11 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by parallax View Post

The answer :

 

Wait...so the models discussed are concerned with forces operating inline with the plane (or handpath), but the reverse roll of the forearms (teeacing it) causes the tumble?  Those forces dont operate inline with the plane.  Or maybe these guys are having a hard time explaining this stuff on a simple level...

post #12 of 16

The simple answer, as I understand it, is that the club head path being above or below (inside or outside) of the hand path, creates a moment arm, that causes the forearms and club to rotate. 

 

When the club head path is below the hand path, the moment arm, causes the club to rotate square (or closed); when the club head path is above the hand path, it causes the club to rotate open. 

 

AFAIK....

post #13 of 16

Yeah I got it...but theres no way the torque to square the face works within the same plane as the hands (the plane that is used in mackenzie's model to measure reactive forces).  "In my opinion"

 

 

post #14 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by parallax View Post
 

When the club head path is below the hand path, the moment arm, causes the club to rotate closed; when the club head path is above the hand path, it causes the club to rotate open.

 

That's pretty much it, except that the body may or may not do those things. There's a torque in each of those directions (I changed your "square" to say "closed" for consistency), yes, but it's small and the actual rotation of your forearms, wrists, etc. often play a much larger role in this.

 

In layman's terms (kind of):

  • A clubhead under the hands plane tends to be more open and as the forces attempt to shift it towards inline with the hands path/plane, it will try to twist the face in the closed direction.
  • A clubhead above the hands plane tends to be more closed and as the forces attempt to shift it towards inline with the hands path/plane, it will try to twist the face in the open direction.

 

It's not a big force, though, and I will re-iterate what I think I said above: I prefer a swing that's more ONline than INward or OUTward.

post #15 of 16
Iacas would you care to share anything on the "loading" of the moment arm? Robert rock for example...butt of the club pointing inside the ball from dtl at A3 (p3 in 5sk?).

What has to happen from A3-A5 to get the Ch "online"?
post #16 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by PingG10guy View Post

What has to happen from A3-A5 to get the Ch "online"?

 

Those are primarily positions we use to discuss the downswing. They don't really have any relation to the backswing, and PGA Tour players range from Ray Floyd to Rickie Fowler/Ryan Moore.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by PingG10guy View Post

Iacas would you care to share anything on the "loading" of the moment arm? Robert rock for example...butt of the club pointing inside the ball from dtl at A3 (p3 in 5sk?).

 

See the above - we don't really care about the backswing unless it's causing problems with the downswing. I will also say that a lot of players go from steep (relatively, bear in mind) to shallow (again, relatively) in transition.

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