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Science


iacas

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Dr. Sasho Mackenzie had a quote in the March issue of Golf magazine that I liked.

Listen, there'll always be science-deniers and the belief that none of what I or other researchers do is necessary. They're going to be eroded away. There'll be fewer and fewer of these people once the community realizes that science and technology are simply about learning and understanding better ways to swing a golf club. I no longer feel bad for the instructors who fight it, because the information's out there. If they've got a theory that's different from mine, fine. I'm open-minded. I'll listen. Maybe I've made a mistake, but if they don't have an argument other than, "I believe in my method," then okay. I can't do anything else. We can't have a logical debate. I just feel bad for the golfers they're teaching.

Emphasis mine.

Unfortunately, another quote applies: You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

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I too like this comment not even being an instructor. There has been a good share of the very type he describes in that comment on this site. You have enormous patience with them. They're stubborn and not going to change. What irks me is when they don't see that you're clearly open-minded and willing to listen. As soon as they realize you disagree, it's ears closed, mind closed and you 'think you know everything.' Little do they realize it's themselves they are describing.

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1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

I too like this comment not even being an instructor. There has been a good share of the very type he describes in that comment on this site. You have enormous patience with them. They're stubborn and not going to change. What irks me is when they don't see that you're clearly open-minded and willing to listen. As soon as they realize you disagree, it's ears closed, mind closed and you 'think you know everything.' Little do they realize it's themselves they are describing.

You are both just talking about @Righty to Lefty and @Puttin4Dough/@Golflivesmatter?

I think that people think "open minded" means "you are taking my theory seriously" or something.-If you dismiss my theory you are close-minded even if the facts or science or whatever make sense. They think open minded means you consider even ridiculous things.

Scientists do not consider the theory that the earth is flat-It would be a complete waste of time.

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1 hour ago, Phil McGleno said:

They think open minded means you consider even ridiculous things.

LOL. Beautifully put. The guys you named are the most recent perhaps. But I think it can refer to many out there he's probably come across be it Twitter, FB, Instagram....but they certainly fit the type mentioned.

Edited by Vinsk
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I will listen to, and maybe even try, anything. But if it ultimately makes no sense, then it makes no sense! I learned to golf through tips from my Uncle (who was a damn good golfer), and instructional articles in Golf Digest, back when that publication was worthy of being read. 

Even though the articles in GD were supposedly penned by "pros" or "top instructors", if I tried them and they didn't work, I discarded them! But, even renowned scientists seem to have a problem with this.

They seem reluctant to discard a paradigm that does not work unless there's another paradigm present to take it's place! Even when no paradigm would be preferable. 

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3 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

But if it ultimately makes no sense, then it makes no sense!

That's not really the point here, or..it's exactly the point. Just because something doesn't make sense to you doesn't change the point at hand if it's backed by science. There are those who will argue what they understand or believe and disregard the facts as based on science. That is a no win argument as they are too stubborn to even realize the ridiculousness of their position. It's like playing chess with a pigeon; no matter how many great moves you make the pigeon just runs around shitting on the board acting like he's winning.

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9 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

Even though the articles in GD were supposedly penned by "pros" or "top instructors", if I tried them and they didn't work, I discarded them!

You don't know that you were doing whatever it is they asked of you properly or even that they were intended for you.

9 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

But, even renowned scientists seem to have a problem with this.

Huh?

9 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

They seem reluctant to discard a paradigm that does not work unless there's another paradigm present to take it's place! Even when no paradigm would be preferable. 

Scientists do? Because I strongly disagree.

Please give an example.

Plus what @Vinsk said.

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On 2/13/2019 at 2:27 AM, Phil McGleno said:

You are both just talking about @Righty to Lefty and @Puttin4Dough/@Golflivesmatter?

I think that people think "open minded" means "you are taking my theory seriously" or something.-If you dismiss my theory you are close-minded even if the facts or science or whatever make sense. They think open minded means you consider even ridiculous things.

Scientists do not consider the theory that the earth is flat-It would be a complete waste of time.

I don't talk about swing methods....I speak about impact, ball flight laws, D Plane, etc. Science of the game is what made my transition from right to left hand much much easier.  The Earth is round I am more open minded than you think and this forum is proof of it.  Just because I don't agree with a lot of what is said in that forum doesn't mean that I don't understand what is being said.  

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1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I don't talk about swing methods....I speak about impact, ball flight laws, D Plane, etc.

You have if "swing methods" involves "how you get to impact." Specifically, the role of the arms in getting to impact.

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

The Earth is round I am more open minded than you think and this forum is proof of it.

This forum proves how open-minded you are?

This forum has shown that, when presented with actual facts, you deny them and carry on with your thoughts anyway. That's not being open minded.

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Just because I don't agree with a lot of what is said in that forum doesn't mean that I don't understand what is being said.

Given that you often "disagree" with facts then I don't know what says about what you do or don't understand.

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Just found this thread-fascinating. No idea what is driving this ...seems to have history...I love the topic of Belief.

"Belief is the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case regardless of empirical evidence to prove that something is the case with factual certainty. 

Truth is a term used to indicate various forms of accord with fact or reality, or fidelity to an original or to a standard or ideal. 

Fact: something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information

Proof; evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement"

I'm starting to "Believe" most of us take a position based on "our" interpretation of the "facts" and the "source" and then rationalize our "belief".  I recently met a younger women who lives her life debating other peoples positions even during social encounters, if they differ from her beliefs; which she is quick to point out are based in fact. She will never change her position. 

I grew up learning basic math through memorization: one plus one equals two. I did that until I went to school where I was taught more complicated memory exercises. I've used math in the workplace for 45 years. I believe it to be true because I seem to get the same results as others around me. But I don't "Know" or have "proof" it is true. I just "believe " it is true. 

It seems Golfers (and instructors for that matter) are of two camps...the video game generation and the pre video game generation. (I believe I first heard that from Debbie Donigar) I'm of the pre V generation-If I speak to an instructor who spouts "data" from trackman I tend to tune out. Its not that I don't believe the data, the facts are are important or "true", just that I can't relate. I don't care about "why". Just tell me how to swing differently, and its ok to physically touch me to show me what you are trying to get me to achieve.

My son, a V generation, loves the data (possibly because he "believes" it is "Fact" and can change ball flight by talking to him about where you want spin to reduce to or angle of attack.

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into." Interesting statement...but...at some point, the reasoning of the position comes down to an aha moment, final "belief"...

Whew, got that crap out of my head...now I;ll go make a shopping list

 

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Interesting topic. I appreciate the science of the golf swing. It impresses me the knowledge espoused on this site from the clearly scientific thinkers. That was never my strong point. Not that I don't "get" it, or understand what is being said but I do believe there comes a point where it gets to much. I'm more of a visual learner so that may be part of it. I tend to learn seeing what @iacas or @mvmac are trying to say as opposed to reading a post on it. The great thing about this site is that video is so revered as a learning tool that someone like me is better able to grasp the scientific concepts by seeing them in action. I will never care or seek out my trackman numbers but if I can learn based on these things how it can help my swing by seeing the better way of doing things that's all the better. Thank you to the scientists. It sounds corny but because of your thirst for knowledge and getting things correct we all benefit.

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