Jump to content
Check out the Spin Axis Podcast! ×
Note: This thread is 2029 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

I've been Playing Golf for:

About three and a half years, but really started to take it more seriously in the last year or two.

My current handicap index or average score is:

This is the first season I have kept a handicap (started recording at the beginning of April). I started out at an 18.4 and have gone to 18.0, 17.8, and now 15.6 in the latest revision.
My typical ball flight is:

Wedges through 7i - generally straight, with occasional slight fade. I range from fairly to very comfortable hitting all of these clubs and having a solid idea of the area they will end up.

6i through 4i - 65/35 fade vs medium slice. Certainly less consistent than the shorter clubs, but misses are playable, for the most part. 4 iron is generally my tee shot because it's the longest club I can keep between the white stakes, but I have trouble with misses when I overdo the swing trying to get too much distance out of it.

3 wood - 20/80 fade vs hard slice; Driver 10/90 slice off the planet. The 3 wood has its days where I can hit it relatively consistently, but it's pretty useless often, and I need to have clearance on the left side of the hole to allow it to start left and work its way back. Driver never comes out of the bag aside from range sessions.

The shot I hate or the "miss" I'm trying to reduce/eliminate is:

Hate: most every shot with my 3 wood and driver. Reduce: low hook with short/mid irons and slice with long irons.


Videos: 

I will work on getting better video in the near future here, specifically for the DTL views -- the friend I had take the videos didn't know what I was using them for, so he didn't really line anything up.

This season I joined the same course membership my friend has, so I have really been trying to take advantage of the free range balls to get consistent practice in for the first time in my life. I have really been working to reduce what was an extremely severe out-to-in action that I had which was forcing a wicked slice on every club. I'm not working toward any specific ball flight - I honestly don't care if I hit a draw, straight, or fade, as long as it is consistent.

I would assume that my backswing could use some taming, as I often find myself overdoing the swing, but I have struggled to find that balance of shortening the backswing vs slowing down the swing and messing up timing. Also, the lower body mechanics are all jacked up from thousands and thousands of muscle memory reps of throwing a baseball before ever swinging a club.

I really want to learn as much as I can about the golf swing so I can make sure that the time I spend practicing is productive. Any input I can get is greatly appreciated. Thanks everyone.

 

 

 

 

Edited by BC-to-MI

Justin

Driver: :callaway: Rogue Draw 11* Evenflow Blue 65 X

Fairway Wood: :callaway: Epic Flash 5 Wood 18* Tensei Blue AV 75 X
Irons: :titleist: AP3 4-PW Project X 6.5   |   Wedges: :callaway: MD4 50*/56*/60*
Putter: :odyssey: O-Works Tank #1
                                                                       

My Swing

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

Regarding the driver issues, you are swinging too hard. Your hands are way ahead of the ball and clubface is open at impact, which is going to slice the ball right. In general your weight should be back on the left foot much sooner and before (yes before) you complete your backswing. If you google step-through drill there are videos around which give a better presentation of proper weight shift that I think will help a lot.


Posted

Congrats on starting swing thread!

If I were you, I'd start with my set-up and then learn how to make a proper pivot so you don't end up in this position. You don't see any pros looking like that at the top.

2139400043_ScreenShot2019-06-05at8_28_26AM.thumb.png.980e38f5d37af71aaf6704c1222d1034.png'

I recommend these two threads:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, ladders11 said:

Regarding the driver issues, you are swinging too hard. Your hands are way ahead of the ball and clubface is open at impact, which is going to slice the ball right. In general your weight should be back on the left foot much sooner and before (yes before) you complete your backswing. If you google step-through drill there are videos around which give a better presentation of proper weight shift that I think will help a lot.

The overswing is definitely something I struggle with regardless of club. I'll definitely check out those videos. Thanks.

2 hours ago, chspeed said:

Congrats on starting swing thread!

If I were you, I'd start with my set-up and then learn how to make a proper pivot so you don't end up in this position. You don't see any pros looking like that at the top.

2139400043_ScreenShot2019-06-05at8_28_26AM.thumb.png.980e38f5d37af71aaf6704c1222d1034.png'

I recommend these two threads:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll give these a read. Thanks for the direction.

Edited by BC-to-MI

Justin

Driver: :callaway: Rogue Draw 11* Evenflow Blue 65 X

Fairway Wood: :callaway: Epic Flash 5 Wood 18* Tensei Blue AV 75 X
Irons: :titleist: AP3 4-PW Project X 6.5   |   Wedges: :callaway: MD4 50*/56*/60*
Putter: :odyssey: O-Works Tank #1
                                                                       

My Swing

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
Posted

You're kind of faking Key #1 by overextending your back at the top, then it moves all over the place in the downswing. There's a lot of excess movement that leads to inconsistencies in your ballstriking.

I'd start by flaring your feet out more so your hips can turn more instead of slide back.

You should work on the wall drill:

You obviously don't have a flexibility issue but for you it's about making a centered hip turn. It's probably going to feel like you're sliding your hips toward the target in the backswing.

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
7 minutes ago, billchao said:

You're kind of faking Key #1 by overextending your back at the top, then it moves all over the place in the downswing. There's a lot of excess movement that leads to inconsistencies in your ballstriking.

I'd start by flaring your feet out more so your hips can turn more instead of slide back.

You should work on the wall drill:

You obviously don't have a flexibility issue but for you it's about making a centered hip turn. It's probably going to feel like you're sliding your hips toward the target in the backswing.

The flared feet and pivot are something I've worked on in the past, then forgotten as I focus on other stuff. I definitely have a problem trying to fix a bunch of stuff at the same time instead of just giving all my focus to a specific issue each session. I'll check out the wall drill for sure. Thanks.

Had a chance to run to the range yesterday over lunch and grabbed a couple DTL shots with driver and 7i. Didn't have time to work on anything, just wanted to get the video.

 

Justin

Driver: :callaway: Rogue Draw 11* Evenflow Blue 65 X

Fairway Wood: :callaway: Epic Flash 5 Wood 18* Tensei Blue AV 75 X
Irons: :titleist: AP3 4-PW Project X 6.5   |   Wedges: :callaway: MD4 50*/56*/60*
Putter: :odyssey: O-Works Tank #1
                                                                       

My Swing

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
Posted
7 minutes ago, BC-to-MI said:

I definitely have a problem trying to fix a bunch of stuff at the same time instead of just giving all my focus to a specific issue each session.

You gotta work on one thing at a time, and I'm not talking about each session, but just in general. It's hard to ingrain any changes if you're constantly shifting focus and often fixing one piece in you swing will fix other issues without having to specifically work on them.

Everything is connected so it's not like you're going to keep making the same compensations if you only change one movement.

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

Did a bunch of mirror work and the aforementioned wall drill this week to hone in on the centered pivot. Got out to the course today and focused on making a centered pivot with flared feet in order to help create rotation without the contortion you can see in the video. Ended up breaking 40 for the first time on 9 holes and posted my best 18-hole score ever with an 81. Going to try to get out to range in the next couple days and get video to see how much of the adjustment is sticking.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

  • Thumbs Up 1

Justin

Driver: :callaway: Rogue Draw 11* Evenflow Blue 65 X

Fairway Wood: :callaway: Epic Flash 5 Wood 18* Tensei Blue AV 75 X
Irons: :titleist: AP3 4-PW Project X 6.5   |   Wedges: :callaway: MD4 50*/56*/60*
Putter: :odyssey: O-Works Tank #1
                                                                       

My Swing

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

One of my buddies is in town this week, so it's been mostly rounds rather than range recently, but off the course, I've really been honing in on the centered pivot using the wall drill and backswings in front of the mirror. I am definitely guilty of overanalyzing everything, so it has been a bit of a struggle to force myself to just focus on one aspect of the swing instead of trying to fix multiple things at once, but we are getting there. Got some video today before our round.

 

There seems to be improvement when I am consciously thinking about making the centered pivot, but I know I revert back to sliding my hips quite a bit when I'm not thinking about it. I feel like the backswing could probably be reined in a bit too, as I would guess that I am losing consistency at a certain point and not actually gaining any additional power, but I don't want to give myself more to think about right now.

Here's the comparison between my first video and today's:

851058290_Rotation6-14.thumb.jpg.30349a38f5e5743c8b6ace602586f515.jpg

Justin

Driver: :callaway: Rogue Draw 11* Evenflow Blue 65 X

Fairway Wood: :callaway: Epic Flash 5 Wood 18* Tensei Blue AV 75 X
Irons: :titleist: AP3 4-PW Project X 6.5   |   Wedges: :callaway: MD4 50*/56*/60*
Putter: :odyssey: O-Works Tank #1
                                                                       

My Swing

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
Posted

Looks good. Don't worry about other stuff until this becomes automatic.

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, billchao said:

Looks good. Don't worry about other stuff until this becomes automatic.

This. Big improvement in achieving a centered pivot but don't stop there; really make sure you have this ingrained before going forward.

Edited by Grizvok

Back in PA!

Driver: :titleist: TSR3, 3W: :titleist: TSR3, Hybrid: :ping: Anser 20, Irons: Takomo 101T, Wedges: :titleist: Vokey SM5 (52, 56, 60), Putter: TBD

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted (edited)

Really struggled with ball striking this weekend. I tend to overanalyze everything, so I think I'm a little too much in my own head right now trying to make adjustments. Inconsistencies remain with the centered pivot, but still working on ignoring the rest of the swing to focus on getting this down pat.

 

All that said, I've dropped down to a 14.1 handicap from an 18.4 at the beginning of the year. Still pretty inconsistent round to round, but my misses are much more playable, especially since reading the "Stop Aiming at the Pin" thread.

Edited by BC-to-MI

Justin

Driver: :callaway: Rogue Draw 11* Evenflow Blue 65 X

Fairway Wood: :callaway: Epic Flash 5 Wood 18* Tensei Blue AV 75 X
Irons: :titleist: AP3 4-PW Project X 6.5   |   Wedges: :callaway: MD4 50*/56*/60*
Putter: :odyssey: O-Works Tank #1
                                                                       

My Swing

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
Posted

Don't slide your upper body forward with your hips in the downswing. 

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
5 hours ago, billchao said:

Don't slide your upper body forward with your hips in the downswing. 

How is your chest and upper body supposed to “cover” the ball if it isn’t part of the lateral shift towards the target in the later stages of the backswing and early stages of the downswing?

Most videos I’ve seen from the AMG guys about lateral shift always touch on the importance of actually re-centering and moving laterally with the upper body in conjunction with the lower.

Back in PA!

Driver: :titleist: TSR3, 3W: :titleist: TSR3, Hybrid: :ping: Anser 20, Irons: Takomo 101T, Wedges: :titleist: Vokey SM5 (52, 56, 60), Putter: TBD

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
Posted
41 minutes ago, Grizvok said:

How is your chest and upper body supposed to “cover” the ball if it isn’t part of the lateral shift towards the target in the later stages of the backswing and early stages of the downswing?

Most videos I’ve seen from the AMG guys about lateral shift always touch on the importance of actually re-centering and moving laterally with the upper body in conjunction with the lower.

This isn't a general discussion about the golf swing. My advice is specific to @BC-to-MI.

But to answer your question, you want to fall forward and re-center, but not continue to slide your torso too far forward beyond where it was at address (Key #1). Doing that shifts the low point forward and you have to make other compensations to hit the ball.

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
6 hours ago, billchao said:

Don't slide your upper body forward with your hips in the downswing. 

 

15 minutes ago, billchao said:

This isn't a general discussion about the golf swing. My advice is specific to @BC-to-MI.

But to answer your question, you want to fall forward and re-center, but not continue to slide your torso too far forward beyond where it was at address (Key #1). Doing that shifts the low point forward and you have to make other compensations to hit the ball.

@billchao, if sliding my upper body too far forward in the downswing is shifting the low point of my swing forward, would this explain why my main issue the last few rounds has been repeatedly topping my irons? Not the extreme 10-yard ones hammered into the ground, but super low trajectory and only traveling maybe 50% of their usual distance -- almost looking like they had top spin.

Justin

Driver: :callaway: Rogue Draw 11* Evenflow Blue 65 X

Fairway Wood: :callaway: Epic Flash 5 Wood 18* Tensei Blue AV 75 X
Irons: :titleist: AP3 4-PW Project X 6.5   |   Wedges: :callaway: MD4 50*/56*/60*
Putter: :odyssey: O-Works Tank #1
                                                                       

My Swing

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
Posted
29 minutes ago, BC-to-MI said:

@billchao, if sliding my upper body too far forward in the downswing is shifting the low point of my swing forward, would this explain why my main issue the last few rounds has been repeatedly topping my irons? Not the extreme 10-yard ones hammered into the ground, but super low trajectory and only traveling maybe 50% of their usual distance -- almost looking like they had top spin.

Yea, an extremely thinned shot is one of the possible outcomes. Or you can just straight up top it, chunk it from releasing the wrist angles too early, etc. Lots of inconsistency of strike from having the ball too far back, which is effectively what you're doing by moving the low point forward so much.

It's likely your good strikes come out low as well, or at least lower than they should.

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
25 minutes ago, billchao said:

Yea, an extremely thinned shot is one of the possible outcomes. Or you can just straight up top it, chunk it from releasing the wrist angles too early, etc. Lots of inconsistency of strike from having the ball too far back, which is effectively what you're doing by moving the low point forward so much.

It's likely your good strikes come out low as well, or at least lower than they should.

Yeah, my clean strikes are probably 50/50 regular trajectory vs looking like knockdown shots, which is clearly a pain when trying to hit elevated greens or stay below the hole. That all makes sense. Thanks.

Justin

Driver: :callaway: Rogue Draw 11* Evenflow Blue 65 X

Fairway Wood: :callaway: Epic Flash 5 Wood 18* Tensei Blue AV 75 X
Irons: :titleist: AP3 4-PW Project X 6.5   |   Wedges: :callaway: MD4 50*/56*/60*
Putter: :odyssey: O-Works Tank #1
                                                                       

My Swing

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 2029 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    Carl's Place
    PlayBetter
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FitForGolf
    FlightScope Mevo

    Coupon Codes (save 10-20%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack/FitForGolf, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope. 15% off TourStriker (no code).
  • Posts

    • Ok, thanks.  I still really don't get it, but that's OK.
    • Almost no effect and arguably when it does have an effect it does a better job.  An example is the best way I can think to say this. Say you have a course that has a 476 yard par 5 on it. Par is 72, course rating is 72.0. Slope is whatever you want it to be. Scratch player plays that hole and under NDB maximum score is a 7, which makes sense. Then let's say you take that hole and chop a yard off it, making it 475 yards and call it a par 4. That would have no impact on the course rating (unless there's a big fluke going on about the rating being 71.95001 or something). Now that scratch player gets 1 stroke. Assuming that the stroke index of the hole in question is 1 (which would make sense that it would be the hardest hole on the course given it was a par 5 three minutes ago), then that scratch player has a maximum score under NDB of 7, which once again seems reasonable. It was 7 when the hole was 1 yard longer, so it should be 7 now too. If you don't make that adjustment, then now the max score is 6, which would be a weird change to make.  I know that in reality this will change by what the actual stroke indices are and the actual hole where that extra shot comes along will vary by handicap (between all 18 of them), but at its basest level, whether par is 71 or 72 shouldn't really impact what the maximum score should be. On average it should fall out that way, which it does now and didn't before. 
    • Day 30, June 3.  Yay I can post in red again 😃  This morning, I spent 20 minutes hitting 6-iron shots (indoors, off a mat, into a net, usual routine) and then did Speed Stix training (out back).  The latter I evidently hadn't done since November and it shows in the numbers, but that's something I need to get back into too. 
    • In the 1970s and 1980s, Dean Knuth, who became known as the "Pope of Slope," created the handicap system as well as the course rating system. He consulted with the USGA through 2002, but hasn't really had a hand in the handicapping since then, and was not involved in the WHS. Suffice to say, he does not like the WHS, and he wrote an article expressing why:  https://www.popeofslope.com/world-handicap-system.html. The problem? His article… well, it's bad. Here is a brief (for me!) exploration of that article. Part 1 includes the bulk of his point, right up until the section labeled "The Par Pitfall," here: The handicapping system has seen almost no changes in the U.S. It's the rest of the world where they've seen the biggest changes. In the U.S., ESC was replaced by NDB, we have soft and hard caps, and we use 8/20 instead of 10/20 at 96%. Those are the only real changes. Dean will spend most of the rest of the time talking about par, but — and this cannot be stressed enough — the par is irrelevant. Its role in determining your playing or course handicap does three things only: It makes the score you have to shoot to "play to your handicap" make a lot more sense. It "bakes in" the changes players should have made but rarely did when playing from different tees. Through NDB, it defines the holes on which you can take a triple (or which you can take a gross bogey if you're on the + side of scratch). The calculation of your differential at the end is completely unaffected and does not involve par. Dean will spend a good amount of the time in this article talking about how par is "less precise" than the rating and slope, but he seems to miss the two points here: Par is an integer. If it helps him to think of it as 72.000000 or something, by all means, Dean… Par is used only to adjust another whole number: the strokes a player gets on the course. We don't give 10.4 strokes — a 10.4 index player might get 13, 10, 8, or whatever number of whole-number strokes.   The problem with this type of statement is that the "par handicap" could be "7" or "13" or "88" and except for affecting NDB, players competing against each other would have the same difference (except they'd still need to adjust for playing from different tees). Let's say a 10.4 and a 14.7 are playing a 71.5/127 course. Par is 72. (10.4 * 127/113) + 71.5 - 72 = 11.2 -> 11 strokes (14.7 * 127/113) + 71.5 - 72 = 16.0 -> 16 strokes -> this player gets 5 strokes Instead of 72, plug in 23 because it's your favorite number: (10.4 * 127/113) + 71.5 - 23 = 60.2 -> 60 strokes (14.7 * 127/113) + 71.5 - 23 = 65.0 -> 65 strokes -> this player gets 5 strokes They still get the strokes they deserve (5), but we've lost the meaning as players now get 60 strokes off a 10 handicap. Remove the course rating and… you're back at the same problem as we've had where players weren't doing the calculation properly, and we lose the first benefit of "playing to your handicap". An example of that, with a 12.3 index player playing on a 68.7/123 rated par 72 course. Properly: (12.3 * 123/113) + 68.7 - 72 = 10.1 -> 10 strokes Improperly: 12.3 * 123/113 = 13.4 -> 13 strokes If the player plays a "net even par" round of golf, he'll shoot 82 and 85. Here's why this makes sense: WHS: (82 - 68.7) * 113 / 123 = 12.2 differential Prior: (85 - 68.7) * 113 / 123 = 14.97 -> 15.0 differential The player "played to his handicap" with a net even par round in shooting the 82, which aligns with getting ten strokes, not 13. This makes way more sense and is in fact an improvement over the prior system for two of the three reasons listed above: It more closely aligns the index and the score you have to shoot to "shoot your handicap" It bakes in players playing from different tees.   Par is not a factor in determining the differential in the WHS system, only the playing handicap. The only way it affects the differential is that it can award a triple bogey on a few more holes (or a gross bogey max to a few + handicappers playing shorter tees) in determining NDB. You can completely ignore the WHS system of calculating your playing handicap and your differentials — the calculation of which does not use par - is going to be almost exactly the same (again, differing only when you tripled a hole on which you wouldn't have gotten NDB but now do because you didn't do the subtraction part of the WHS course/playing handicap calculation). Or maybe it was because of the other three reasons listed above. Which were the reasons given to me back in 2017 and 2018 when I talked with some of the people responsible for helping to create the WHS. If the ease of adoption by other countries and regions, then that's a fourth reason. But, I didn't really hear much about it prior to the WHS being instituted. A similar step was also required when players played from different tees, yet this was frequently forgotten. Players used to playing the blue tees would move up to the whites and expect to keep their 13 strokes, and be dismayed and sometimes even angered and argumentative that they would only get 10. This literally makes no sense. There's no more or less rounding than in previous versions. The output of "HI * Slope/113" typically produced a decimal number, the output of "HI * Slope/113 + CR - Par" also produces a decimal number, and the output of "Score * 113/Slope" (which is unchanged) also produces a decimal number. Each are rounded just as they were before. No, Dean is way off base here. Even if you accept that "par is an approximation" (of course difficulty), it's not used as he suggests. A player playing a par-72 that's rated 75 will get more COURSE handicap strokes than a player playing a par-72 that's rated 67, but that makes sense. At the end of the round, their score is processed using the same old formula to get their differential as always. This is about where I start to wonder and worry about Dean's mental faculties at his nearly 80 years of age. It hasn't "gone away" - it's been built-in as he says, and I think it's fairly obvious that this is true. No it is not. It is what I've said above, which is what the USGA and R&A have said it is. I agree that the course rating is the "most accurate measure of the relative difficulty for the scratch golfer" (I mean, it's almost exactly the defeinition), and slope determines the relative difficulty between two levels of player. So, which of these formulas incorporates BOTH the CR and the Slope in determining a player's course handicap: a. (HI * Slope/113) + CR - Par b. (HI * Slope/113) Clearly A incorporates "the most accurate measure of the relative difficulty" (as well as the measure of the relative difficulty). Dean's favored formula did NOT include "the most accurate measure of the relative difficulty for the scratch golfer". A scratch golfer under Dean's preferred method could shoot an even par round of 72 and see a differential that ranged from +2.7 (75.4/140) to 5.5 (66.3/118) or something. Under the WHS, if they shoot net par, they're going to end up with about a 0.0 differential. No. Again, you could subtract any integer from the Course Rating (which again the WHS ADDS to the calculation in course/playing handicap that the older system did not) and get the same relative course handicaps for all players. Using par just helps it make the most sense to actual golfers. It's an integer… as are the scores we shoot and the pars of the holes we play. The addition of the "CR - Par" has almost no effect on a player's differential. Again, the only affect it would have is when NDB is applied, because there may be a few holes where they'd get a stroke that they do not. And even then, it requires the player to card a triple on that specific hole, and be among their 8 out of 20 counting scores, AND even then if it happens once a round in ALL of the eight rounds, it's about 1 stroke on their index (probably a bit less given that most slopes are > 113). This has nothing to do with "jumping in" and everything to do with the foundational reasons for adding (CR - Par). Dean sees it as "adding par" when he would more accurately see it as adding the Course Rating! Small point of order: this was not shown to be accurate. The 96% applied to all 10 scores almost perfectly offset the dropping of two middle scores. Some players indexes went up a little. Some went down a little. The net change was almost exactly 0. Yes, that's how math works. The change makes MORE sense, again, as a player shooting net par under the WHS has basically "shot their handicap". Shoot below net par and your handicap will likely go down. Shoot above it and it may go up a little (less chance of this than shooting under lowering it, though, of course). So? Half of the players who play a 72.5/72-par course will see their Course Handicap one higher than they had before the system and half will not! Also and again, players who play a course rated 68.7 par-72 will all see their course handicaps drop several strokes. That's just math, and the boundaries of rounding. Dean chose a 0.5 marker, but the same math is true at any level, because the HI already has a decimal, and the Slope/113 multiplier also tends to produce decimals. So, someone who previously had a 10.5 to 10.9 index will still be an 11, while the 10.0s to 10.4s will go up to 11s. But on another course where the decimals work out to 0.3 and 0.2… the same math applies. And on a course where the decimals work out to 0.8… players half of the players will get an "extra" stroke and half will not. This is just rounding. It's always been a part of the WHS. The point at which rounding occurs might move slightly (depending on the course and index in question) for half of the situations, but if you have a 10.0 and an 11.5… or a 10.5 and an 12.0… half of the time the higher handicapper will get the "extra" stroke, and half the time the lower handicapper will get the "extra" stroke. This is just how rounding works. Handicaps in match play are almost entirely unaffected. A 13 playing a 10 might now be a 10 playing a 7, but the difference is still the same size. You're subtracting out a constant (CR - Par) from both players. The (HI * Slope/113) remains the same. This makes no sense and Dean has absolutely failed to provide any basis for this "less accurate" while ignoring that the WHS ADDS the CR to the course handicap calculation. It is easier. Shoot net par and you've "played to your handicap." Yes, and what they say is both accurate and makes sense. The WHS method bakes in the "playing from different tees" and makes it easier to know what it takes to "play to your handicap." Those are my notes right up until "The Par Pitfall." Dean has yet to make a valid point in any of this blog post thus far. When I have the time, and feel like procrastinating a bit more like today, I'll continue with my response to this blog post. I respect what Dean did in creating the original handicap system and the course ratinga system. The course rating system is one of the most elegant solutions to a very complex problem that I have ever seen. Nothing done by the WHS changes that. The course rating system is relatively unchanged, and its application in the WHS is, again, MORE accurate by the inclusion of the Course Rating than the previous system, in addition to the other benefits. Dean deserves (and has been given) much credit for that. But, if this is how he thinks these days, Dean can remain Pope Emeritus but the Cardinals need to elect a new Pope.
    • Wordle 1,810 4/6* ⬛⬛⬛⬛🟦 ⬛🟦⬛⬛⬛ ⬛🟧⬛🟦🟧 🟧🟧🟧🟧🟧
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.