Position at Address and Impact. Why do We Set up Differently?

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, KelvinPDX said:

Wow that’s perfect thanks. He’s basically  doing what I’m describing. It’s not the same but it’s closer than addressing the ball face forward. Is that photo of the end of the pump or a setup position? I’m going to have to find more stuff on his swing. My difference is I wouldn’t pump but would go from a static position. I’m wondering if he pumps so he can get more dynamic action into the backswing. This is perfect thanks so much. This site is awesome. 
 

His setup is pretty normal. He “pumps” to that spot, resets briefly, and goes. It’s a way for him to feel the “open” hips even though it really looks very little like his actual impact position.

[KelvinPDX]

Btw, putting those photos on the OP would probably be helpful to clarify my woefully inadequate prose. 

[KelvinPDX]

And as a conclusion I was hitting more balls in my garage with this in my head and it seems the ultimate reason for this type of setup is to take Dustin Johnson’s method of minimizing the movement in your wrist to only one axis (take away the cupped/bowed to flex movement in as much of the swing as possible) or finding the bio mechanical limit of your wrist joint and sticking with it for as much of the swing as you can deal with. This was fun. Thanks. 

[Shorty]

I'm no golf instructor but there is a lot more to an impact position than having your hands ahead of the ball. (Tiger and Rory and Rahm)

Edited March 20, 2021 by Shorty

[KelvinPDX]

Absolutely! It’s just that’s what I’m looking at at the moment 😌. I’m just searching for that ever elusive consistency and it seems like this may be a viable path.

[boogielicious]

10 hours ago, KelvinPDX said:

Absolutely! It’s just that’s what I’m looking at at the moment 😌. I’m just searching for that ever elusive consistency and it seems like this may be a viable path.

I really fell the best way to do this is to film your practice and work with a good instructor. I film most of my swing work hitting into a net. I use MirrorVision with my iPhone and iPad and review what I am working on. It takes discipline but it really shows you what you are doing. A good instructor can guide you to correct issues. I use Evolvr. 

[SEMI_Duffer]

On 3/19/2021 at 6:49 AM, Vinsk said:

Essentially the ‘conventional’ method used by pros generates power by a series of proper weight shifting and timing/routing of the club. The golf swing is usually best suited when it’s swung in a ‘circular, shallow, descending inside to out pattern. If you set your body into position so that this is performed, closed stance with weight forward, and you hold that position, you will quite immediately begin hitting some nice shots.

However, despite what JV argues you’re losing sources of power. Eliminating weight shift, hip turn, shoulder turn, eliminates these sources of power.

Are we talking essentially single-plane, or one-plane, swing, here?

I tried it last fall.  I did indeed start hitting nice shots.  Reduced fade.  Slice went away completely.  Also experienced much more consistency in finding the bottom.  Much fewer instances of hitting them fat or thin.

But I lost about twenty yards across the board and, try as I might, I was not getting it back.  This, coupled with the fact I could find no instructors nearby that taught single-plane swing and I got no response from Todd Graves' school inquiring of same, caused me to abandon it.

[Vinsk]

55 minutes ago, SEMI_Duffer said:

Are we talking essentially single-plane, or one-plane, swing, here?

I tried it last fall.  I did indeed start hitting nice shots.  Reduced fade.  Slice went away completely.  Also experienced much more consistency in finding the bottom.  Much fewer instances of hitting them fat or thin.

But I lost about twenty yards across the board and, try as I might, I was not getting it back.  This, coupled with the fact I could find no instructors nearby that taught single-plane swing and I got no response from Todd Graves' school inquiring of same, caused me to abandon it.

I don’t really dabble in all that plane business. I haven’t lost 20yds but I wasn’t a great ball striker before this method either. My golf woes weren’t due to lack of distance, they were from poor contact. And I think that many people who claim they’ve ‘gained’ distance with these alternate methods really just improved their contact so that a well struck 85mph 7i is better than a toe shot with a 90mph swing.

[KelvinPDX]

Yeah don’t think I’m addressing plane issues here but it’s probably connected. What I’m finding through swing iterations in the garage is that the key to what I’m trying to do is to maintain the flex/bow angle (if the hand were flat on a table the movement in the wrist up and down or off and on the table) and the pronation/ supination (rotation of the hand in the axis of the forearm) in my wrist, with only the side to side movement (ulner and radial deviation) being variable as I go through the swing. This is done in order for me to not cup my wrist at address then having to transition at some point to the proper wrist orientation (flat or bowed ala DJ). It’s just another variable that I’m trying to eliminate and it seems like low hanging fruit.

Following the desire for this wrist position it kinda works itself back into the body setup because when you have your wrist flat at address it starts asking the body to position itself into the position Shown below 

 

If I use the same flat wrist position with a traditional face forward address the club face is severely closed resulting in an uncomfortable relationship between that position and where the ball actually needs to go. It just seems to me the cupped wrist requirement when addressing the ball with hips square is only because the traditional face forward address is the way it’s been done but that feels like it’s the tail wagging the dog.

 

Anyway I’ll be pursuing this. It’s been pretty fruitful at first blush.

and to clarify... everything I do after this setup is a classic, or as close as I can get to it, golf swing. Just trying to eliminate that wrist movement after address.

 

So I read through this thread and what is so cool is that I started this thread thinking this was a body position issue but as the conversation developed and I took the pieces of thoughts out to the garage for analysis, what I discovered is it’s the wrist orientation that allowed for more consistency. The body position was just the doorway to get there. So interesting...

[boogielicious]

10 minutes ago, KelvinPDX said:

Yeah don’t think I’m addressing plane issues here but it’s probably connected. What I’m finding through swing iterations in the garage is that the key to what I’m trying to do is to maintain the flex/bow angle (if the hand were flat on a table the movement in the wrist up and down or off and on the table) and the pronation/ supination (rotation of the hand in the axis of the forearm) in my wrist, with only the side to side movement (ulner and radial deviation) being variable as I go through the swing. This is done in order for me to not cup my wrist at address then having to transition at some point to the proper wrist orientation (flat or bowed ala DJ). It’s just another variable that I’m trying to eliminate and it seems like low hanging fruit.

Following the desire for this wrist position it kinda works itself back into the body setup because when you have your wrist flat at address it starts asking the body to position itself into the position Shown below 

 

If I use the same flat wrist position with a traditional face forward address the club face is severely closed resulting in an uncomfortable relationship between that position and where the ball actually needs to go. It just seems to me the cupped wrist requirement when addressing the ball with hips square is only because the traditional face forward address is the way it’s been done but that feels like it’s the tail wagging the dog.

 

Anyway I’ll be pursuing this. It’s been pretty fruitful at first blush.

and to clarify... everything I do after this setup is a classic, or as close as I can get to it, golf swing. Just trying to eliminate that wrist movement after address.

 

So I read through this thread and what is so cool is that I started this thread thinking this was a body position issue but as the conversation developed and I took the pieces of thoughts out to the garage for analysis, what I discovered is it’s the wrist orientation that allowed for more consistency. The body position was just the doorway to get there. So interesting...

Your grip looks a bit off. The left hand is weak and the right hand more neutral.

 

[KelvinPDX]

This is my point, if I setup classically, with my left wrist cupped the grip is perfectly neutral or even a bit strong. 🤓 The issue is the elimination of that transition from cupped to flat in the backswing.

Edited March 20, 2021 by KelvinPDX

[billchao]

Ok so I hope you take this the right way, but @KelvinPDX you are way overthinking things. If the setup helps you strike the ball a little cleaner, that’s great, but don’t expect a minor static change to significantly change the way you swing the golf club.

[KelvinPDX]

You hit it on the head there Bill. That’s kinda what I do. Bit of an entertainment for me. 🤓 Probably shouldn’t air it in public too much but I thought I’d try how the process would be if I did. It’s actually been helpful for me but not sure how entertaining it is for the folks in Internetland. 🙂

btw in the end I think all of these steps are just that. Steps to a more perfect swing. It’ll never be perfect just better...

... and I think I’ll be settling on a face forward body position, with my wrist set flat, so my arm will be in a straight line with the club at address... for now 😉.

and BTW Bill, I totally understand that I’m talking about a detail in a very complex system. Thanks man. 

[SEMI_Duffer]

Ok, I think I see what you're getting at.

What our pro taught us, when I took lessons last year, was ball centered, set the face of the club perpendicular to the desired ball flight with the end of the club handle pointing roughly between your first and second belt loops, then lay the grip along the crease between your fingers and palm such that, when you close your hand your thumb points down the shaft slightly right of the center of the shaft.  Lay your right hand atop your left such that its lifeline follows the left hand's thumb, which, when the right hand is closed, should result in it's thumb laying slightly left of the center of the shaft.  Your left arm and the club's shaft will form a straight line--or nearly so.

All this results in your hands leading the club head at address, with a neutral grip.

[iacas]

3 hours ago, SEMI_Duffer said:

crease between your fingers and palm

Sounds too far in the palm.

[SEMI_Duffer]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Sounds too far in the palm.

Video submitted for the grip portion of my current training:

https://www.linxnet.com/misc/images/Golf/IMG_2591.MOV

 

[Vinsk]

9 minutes ago, SEMI_Duffer said:

Video submitted for the grip portion of my current training:

https://www.linxnet.com/misc/images/Golf/IMG_2591.MOV

 

This should be interesting. I always hear how the grip is such a personal/preference thing yet anytime a grip is shown someone has something to correct about it.🙄

[SEMI_Duffer]

48 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

This should be interesting. I always hear how the grip is such a personal/preference thing yet anytime a grip is shown someone has something to correct about it.🙄

Well, that grip was taught to us by the PGA pro/instructor that taught our group classes last summer.  I submitted that video to my current, on-line instructors, and they didn't correct it, so I assume they found it acceptable.  I'll double-check with them to make certain, but I would expect that if they had a problem with it they'd have said so.