Stones in Bunkers

[Rulesman]

Prior to 2019 Many clubs had the LR declaring them to be movable obstructions and if the ball moved you simply replaced it. Since 2019 they are now loose impediments but if the balls moves when you remove one, that is now a one shot penalty (the ball still has to be replaced).

Was this really thought through?

[David in FL]

Assuming the intent of the change was for safety, I’d have to say no.  

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Rulesman said:

Was this really thought through?

Yes. Why?

[Rulesman]

19 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yes. Why?

Previously the LR caused a stone to be treated like a MO in all respects. Now the rule doesn't. 

Why not?  Why shouldn't the Rule simply deem a stone in a bunker as either a LI or treat it by Rule as one? A safety conscious player could incur a penalty for being safe about a stone but not a walnut. 

[iacas]

It was explained to me that they wanted people to remove stones, but not to give them so much freedom that they  could just go messing about willy nilly and moving their ball.

So, what they came up with did that.

[Shindig]

If I am understanding this correctly, I've been able to, for over two and a half years now, move stones in bunkers, as long as doing so doesn't move my ball, same as I can do on the fairway or in the rough?  

I either missed this entirely or forgot about it.   

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Shindig said:

I either missed this entirely or forgot about it.   

How? 🙂

Day 14 – Moving or Touching Loose Impediments or Touching Sand in a Bunker

[Shindig]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

How? 🙂

Day 14 – Moving or Touching Loose Impediments or Touching Sand in a Bunker

I remember reviewing the changes in late 2018 when they were announced, but early 2019 was a stressful and difficult part of my outside-of-golf life, so I didn't get a lot of chance to reinforce it (I also ended up not following through on a golf-related commitment I had hoped to keep during that period, this is definitely my biggest regret from that part of my life). 

And my approach to bunkers has long been to just not touch anything (it helps that I'm not in bunkers that much -- something like one shot every other round or so), so the difference hasn't been important to me.

[Rulesman]

13 hours ago, Rulesman said:

Previously the LR caused a stone to be treated like a MO in all respects. Now the rule doesn't. 

Why not?  Why shouldn't the Rule simply deem a stone in a bunker as either a LI or treat it by Rule as one? A safety conscious player could incur a penalty for being safe about a stone but not a walnut. 

Oops. I should have said 'discarded cigarette lighter' rather than a walnut.

[David in FL]

22 hours ago, Rulesman said:

Previously the LR caused a stone to be treated like a MO in all respects. Now the rule doesn't. 

Why not?  Why shouldn't the Rule simply deem a stone in a bunker as either a LI or treat it by Rule as one? A safety conscious player could incur a penalty for being safe about a stone but not a walnut. 

Moreover, assuming that it’s considered less safe to hit larger stones, it could be perceived as discouraging a player from taking an action that could make play more safe…

There are other instances in the rules that allow for relief from unsafe conditions.  If rocks in a bunker are considered unsafe, then yeah, I was a bit surprised by that limitation.

[iacas]

Hitting a ball off a root can be “unsafe.” It’s not necessarily about “safety.”

[Ruler]

On 7/30/2021 at 1:21 AM, iacas said:

Hitting a ball off a root can be “unsafe.” It’s not necessarily about “safety.”

I always have had the understanding that the Local Rule about stones in bunkers was in place to protect players and bystanders from injury. Due to 1.1.2019 change various professional tours around the world expressed their desire to have that LR available again but the Ruling Bodies did not yield for reasons I personally cannot comprehend. After all, such a LR used to be allowed and very widely used, for that matter, so why no longer?

Interestingly enough, there is a Model Local Rule F-9 granting free relief from tree roots on or close to the fairway. It can be seen as a safety issue or a fairness issue or both. Sounds pretty close to the issue of stones in bunkers to me.

[MattM]

Just had this bullshit happen to me today.  Hit my shot out of the bunker.  Heard a terrible sound then the ball reacted fine and went near the hole.  I then look at the bottom of my NEW edel wedge and it's all scuffed the F UP!  I'm so pissed!!!  Problem is that it was a boulder!  I told the clubhouse but doubt anything will be done..

Edited August 8, 2021 by MattM

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Ruler said:

Interestingly enough, there is a Model Local Rule F-9 granting free relief from tree roots on or close to the fairway. It can be seen as a safety issue or a fairness issue or both. Sounds pretty close to the issue of stones in bunkers to me.

The model Local Rule says nothing about safety, so…

I'm sure safety was one of the reasons for changing the bunker rule, but I didn't hear from many that it was the only or even the primary reason for the change.

[MattM]

So...is there a rule is your ball rests on a bloulder that can't be moved in the bunker?  Thats if you can know its there before you hit...Im seriously so pissed!  The bottom of my new edel 62 degree lob wedge looks terrible now!  I would think that would be considered dangerous as well!!

On another note do you guys think I could dremel the bottom of the wedge smooth without screwing up the bounce?