Relax the Hands

[Denny Bang Bang]

On 12/1/2022 at 7:53 PM, dennyjones said:

My first instructor had me grip the club at waist height and said hold on to pretty good.   He then tried to pull the club out of my hand and said the grip strength should be strong enough that someone cannot pull the club out of your hands.

That was pretty much in my first lesson as well.  If I grip the club with my left hand (I’m a righty) with good pressure with only my ring and pinky fingers, someone should not be able to pull the club out of my hand.  I was told it means good pressure and the grip is in my fingers properly.

[phillyk]

1 hour ago, Wade Patton said:

As I restated before I wasn't looking for instruction. I play by feel and performance, and have my instructors.
 

 

Everyone plays by feel. The transfer of information to movement is based on feels. So, absolutely, feel is completely individual. The question is what information and how is it presented?

1 hour ago, Wade Patton said:

 I apologize for getting "testy" before, but I wasn't expecting so many opposing views and being effectively chastised for not "listening to" or "respecting" the instructor member(s) here.

 

 

No need to apologize, we are all here because of the game. It’s a passion for many of us. It’s ok to say you think something or play a certain way. Have at it. We want to make sure the right information is there though. We don’t aim at anyone, just the ideas. 

2 hours ago, Wade Patton said:

It's they perfect amount that retains the club at every speed and never inhibits the freedom of the hands and forearms to do their natural job in returning the clubface through address position at full song.
 

The key is in the wrists and forearms because they should be somewhat “free.” We don’t want people to grip so hard that they are tense all the way to the shoulder. But imagine doing a punching jab. Make a fist but try to go fast. Grip hard in the fist but go fast. More and more, information is coming out to say faster swing means/needs a firmer grip.

Tech is trying to improve efficiency of movements. If we increase effort, is the payoff worth it OR simply using same or less effort for better results. Distance, control, and consistency can all come with certain movements. 

[iacas]

I'm re-writing my earlier response.

6 hours ago, Wade Patton said:

I apologize for getting "testy" before, but I wasn't expecting so many opposing views and being effectively chastised for not "listening to" or "respecting" the instructor member(s) here.

I went back and looked: the first time anyone wrote the word "listen" or "respect" in this topic was in your post that I just quoted. Dennis Sales used it in an Instagram post I linked to earlier:

Dennis Sales Golf (@dennissalesgolf) • Instagram photo

---

Dennis Sales Golf shared a post on Instagram: "Listen to @brysondechambeau and end the nonsense of people getting advice of holding a club like a bird or don’t squeeze the toothpaste out. I don’t...

Did you click through to and read that IG post?

6 hours ago, Wade Patton said:

As I restated before I wasn't looking for instruction.

…

Folks can decide for themselves if Manuel de la Torre's concepts and swing are "outdated".  I think they are perfect and should yet be taught.  I don't see anything (not really looking) that tech has revealed that changes how a body swings a clubhead through a ball and launches it toward the target.

…

I like my grip.

I yet hold to the notion of the dynamic variations on grip tension, different for everyone, just as de la Torre explains and illustrates in the old clinic.

…

My swing is simpler, easier, and I don't think about grip or grip pressures any more.  They're just natural-and always sufficient to retain possession of the club at every level of force with which I swing my clubs. As Manuel points out grip pressure is different for everyone but it's not something we have to think about--just like we don't have to think about positions and what body parts are doing what in order to swing a golf club effectively and consistently.

Most of what I omitted is off topic.

This topic, this discussion, is not really about you, @Wade Patton. We're discussing information, "swing theory," etc. We've never seen your golf swing AFAIK… we're not talking about you, we're talking about building a high-performance swing in general.

I think you're leaving performance on the table by not heeding some of what we've (general we, the golf community) learned, some of what we've measured, some of what modern instructors and players are saying and doing.

It's never been about your swing Wade. It's about information and "things" to build the best, highest performing swing you can make.

I'm glad you "like" relying on your body to change grip pressure throughout your swing. All that really says is that you're not letting the club slide out of your hands, though. It doesn't say anything about whether it's a high performing swing.

It's disingenuous (or just flat out wrong) to pretend that grip pressure automatically leads to a loss of "freedom" or whatever other things you tried to tie together. Just as it's disingenuous to say things like "I don't think about grip pressures anymore," because… neither do I (when playing golf).

6 hours ago, Wade Patton said:

That's exactly what I'm saying-that grip is dynamic according to the forces created by our swing.

Again… that's only saying "my body adjusts so the club doesn't go flying out of my hands." Great. That doesn't speak to whether that's the best way to do it, or whether you're leaving performance on the table by employing that strategy.

4 hours ago, phillyk said:

Everyone plays by feel. The transfer of information to movement is based on feels. So, absolutely, feel is completely individual. The question is what information and how is it presented?

No need to apologize, we are all here because of the game. It’s a passion for many of us. It’s ok to say you think something or play a certain way. Have at it. We want to make sure the right information is there though. We don’t aim at anyone, just the ideas.

The key is in the wrists and forearms because they should be somewhat “free.” We don’t want people to grip so hard that they are tense all the way to the shoulder. But imagine doing a punching jab. Make a fist but try to go fast. Grip hard in the fist but go fast. More and more, information is coming out to say faster swing means/needs a firmer grip.

Tech is trying to improve efficiency of movements. If we increase effort, is the payoff worth it OR simply using same or less effort for better results. Distance, control, and consistency can all come with certain movements. 

QFT.

And @Wade Patton, we've learned a lot since Manuel or Tom Watson or whatever, but to the point about Tom Watson saying that he felt he should grip the club at a 4 out of 10 (I'm pretending that's his advice to make a point, even if he never said literally "four out of ten"):

If Tom Watson is capable of gripping at 60 (combined average from above), and when he swings a golf club he grips at 35, that might seem like a 4/10 to him†. Yet that 35 is already 88% (which might feel like a 9.5 out of 10†) to an amateur. Professional golfers have strong hands. Their words, their feels, cannot always be trusted, especially when translated to an amateur.

I'd wager that you're leaving some small bit of performance on the table (which I'll stipulate that you might not care about), even if only subconsciously, because your body is trying to make sure it maintains control of the club instead of knowing it has control of the club. But that's not the topic here. We're talking about the general, and not leaving performance on the table.

† I don't think how humans relate grip strength is a linear scale. I've seen it with anemometers. If I can grip at 140 pounds, getting to 70 does not feel at all like 5/10 effort. The last 14 pounds take WAY more than 10% effort. It's like running: going from a 13-minute to a 12-minute mile barely feels like much of anything, but going from 7 minutes to 6 feels like a massive step up.

[Wade Patton]

I simply do not give a hoot any more. No matter how much it means to you, or golf as you see it. I'm sorry that's not getting across. I'm very happy with my golf. You are completely correct and I only have weird notions based upon nothing. I do not have the energy or motivation to go through your replies and refute or discuss or dissect all that has been said. I apologize completely for ever posting to this thread. Yes it' not about me, it's about all this new golf tech wonderment and those who wish to pursue that avenue of the sport. I'm -dunn- this time. I shouldn't have posted this reply but here it is.

[iacas]

48 minutes ago, Wade Patton said:

I simply do not give a hoot any more.

Oy.

48 minutes ago, Wade Patton said:

No matter how much it means to you, or golf as you see it. I'm sorry that's not getting across.

Double yoi. You have never said that, implied that, or tried to "get that across." Not before now.

48 minutes ago, Wade Patton said:

I'm very happy with my golf.

Nobody's said you shouldn't be.

But again, in this topic we're not really here talking about your golf. We're talking about the theory, about the golf swing, about grip pressure and what know about it, and what we can learn about how it affects performance. We're here to talk about improvement. About maximizing capabilities. It's not like we're making a silly assumption. You could have a Member Swing topic where you talk about your golf swing. This is in Instruction and Playing Tips, where we talk about the general stuff.

If what you meant to say weeks ago was "Hey, I know this is probably not optimal, but I'm not really interested in learning more about golf. I only care about my golf game, so if that's not interesting, cool."

48 minutes ago, Wade Patton said:

You are completely correct and I only have weird notions based upon nothing.

Please stop mischaracterizing what people say. This is like the third time. Nobody's said that. Or anything like that.

48 minutes ago, Wade Patton said:

Yes it' not about me, it's about all this new golf tech wonderment and those who wish to pursue that avenue of the sport.

Oh brother. No, it's about the pursuit of knowledge, continued learning, continued advancement. Progression. Betterment.