Are the Lessons I'm taking Worth it?

[Arsenal Forever]

Hello everyone. As you can see in my signature, I am 16 years old and I'm just trying to get better. At my best, I shoot in the high eighties, low nineties. At my worst, I don't even add up the scorecard it's so bad. But I estimate that is around 110 or so. It is this extreme inconsistency, as well as being an essential part of my high school's team that inspired me and my dad to find me some lessons. One of my dad's coworkers suggested a guy about an hour and a half of a drive away from my house, so it's not exactly convenient.

My dad purchased a set of three lessons, with the third being this Saturday.

Over the first two lessons, we've established that my right hand grip is too strong, which I already knew, but never really affected me THAT bad to have to fix it. This is something I'm struggling to fix, I've been doing it so long that when I'm not thinking about having a weaker grip, it just moves back.

The next is my stance. My spine angle. I never really thought about this, but my teacher says it's the reason that sometimes I dip down and take a huge divot, or pull up and top the ball, which happens more often than the former. In order to achieve this, my teacher had me do a few things, which may or may not be related to the spine angle. First, move my weight more towards my toes, and next flex my knees a little more. After that, he had me push my butt out more to straighten my spine. I never felt comfortable with this from day one. I always figured it could have been because it was something new to me, but I'm starting to think that even in my ripe young age, my lower back won't allow this type of stance.

I utilized both of his methods when I played today and did horrible. I'm not blaming him, or even expecting immediate results. But what I do want to see is at least some hope that one day I will be getting better WITH these methods.



There is my stance, more naturally without instruction. Yes, I have my golf pyjama pants on.

My teacher's name is Ray Bridy, and he's an official PGA Teacher, so I'm not calling him a quack or anything, I've just been a little let down. Although thinking that probably isn't helping.

Thanks for any and all advice, and sorry for the long post.

[mrobbie]

I am not in any way qualified to comment, but...

In your photo, you seem very upright. Sticking your butt out gives you a straighter spine - a friend pointed this out to me years ago; it doesn't feel 'comfortable' but gets you into the correct position for a good swing plane I find. You get used to it. And you should lift your chin up - I find it easier to swing and get a better turn when my chin is up more.

Example is in here; http://www.oneplanegolfswing.com/gol...ods-swing.html



One point - introducing something new into your game ALWAYS feels odd at 1st. Doesn't feel natural at all. But, after continuing with it, it will soon become normal to you.

Also, changing grip, stance and any other things all at once can be a disaster - you have too much to think about all at once and forget the basics. Try spreading your lessons out a bit so you pick up the tips from 1 lesson and spend a week or 2 practicing what you learned on the course/driving range.

[Pinseeker81]

You look way hunched over to me.

[larlev]

I had the same problem with posture....you definetly need to stick your butt out more, like sitting on a barstool. Take a club and put in the middle of your back, holding the grip w/ your right hand , and your left holding the other. Get in your stance. You want the club to be against your back as best as possible.

Here's another..take a paperback book and stick it in the back of your pants, half in half out...make a few swings trying to keep the book touching your back at all times.

Another you can do is have someone put the grip end of a club on your head while you make a swing...trying to keep your head from raising or dipping.

These worked for me when I wasn't staying in my posture.

[mrobbie]

You look way hunched over to me.

Agreed - hunched at the top of the back as he is too upright. To compensate for being upright, he's curled the top of his back to get the hands down lower.

Great that Arsenal Forever added the photo to make it easier to make constructive comments. Also great that he supports Arsenal!

[Shindig]

Well, I'm not qualified to talk about long game and improvement, but in my experience, far more inconsistency comes from the short game than the long game. Is there any particular reason you aren't working on chipping and putting?

What is your long game like, before or after this? Where is your inconsistency coming from? Chart it for a few rounds - good and bad - and I think you'll be surprised. Plus, good chipping & putting will save you immensely on days when you aren't hitting it well. I've salvaged rounds in the low to mid 90s on days when I couldn't hit a GIR - with a wedge, iron, hybrid, whatever - to save my life.

[irspow]

Yeah, the lower back does feel the strain when you start keeping it straight and aren't used to it. If he is an instructor with a decent amount of experience you probably should just do what he recommends.

Many different pros will tell you a lot of different, even seemingly contradictory, advice if you ask around. In the end, you have to accept that he most likely has had enough experience teaching people to know what works and what doesn't. This doesn't mean that he doesn't know what he is talking about, just that his approach and methodology is different from someone else.

Instructors, and I am one myself, have to rely on what they have found successful in teaching others in the past. It sounds to me from what you have said that he is on the right track with you. If someone comes to me struggling with consistency it is almost always related to poor pre-shot things such as grip, stance, and alignment. A consistently bad ball flight for example is much easier to fix. They are already consistent, so a simple swing fix can usually be implemented with an alteration of technique or a new swing thought. Consistency is the key to great golf and it usually relies on a very precise set-up or preshot routine.

Don't worry, you're not alone. All golfers hate to change things that they normally do. It feels unnatural and takes time. Nearly all people struggle while learning something new and will actually perform worse than they did before getting "fixed". This is natural also. I can say that if you make the changes he wants for a while in a few months what feels natural to you now will be very awkward by then. You will look back at the way you curve your back now and wonder how in the world you ever swung a golf club like that.

Bottom line, he's a PGA pro for a reason, give what he says an honest sustained effort and you will be rewarded.

From the picture though, which is not like seeing you in real life, your back is a little hunched over and your legs do appear rather rigid and open to the target. On the plus side, I love the way your arms hang straight down, I cringe when I see people reaching for the ball.

Tom

[Arsenal Forever]

Is there any particular reason you aren't working on chipping and putting?

In no way is this directed at you, nor is this meant to be rude in any way, but it seems a lot of people like to recycle the advice "Work on your chipping and putting more!" or "No, no, no. Buy more lessons instead!"

Like I said, that wasn't directed at you, but sometimes there is very little thought put into responses. To be quite frank with you, I'm not working on my chipping and putting for several reasons. First off, I've yet to toe my putting about 100 yards diagonally off right into woods I hadn't thought possible to bring into play on a hole, which I did today several times. Secondly, chipping and putting is useless if you can't get to that area to begin with. And perhaps most of all, I feel my chipping and putting is on line with where someone in my potential level should be. Driving and iron play, are not. I'll try keeping my rear end out a little more, but there is a slight problem as I noted in the first post: not only does it feel awkward (which I know is going to happen with something new), but it causes some lower back pain too which makes the later holes of a round, even the middle ones not so enjoyable, seeing as how I've got to walk when I play for the high school, and choose to do so on weekends. Thanks for all the help so far.

[irspow]

Sorry if I was one of those people you mentioned. The fact of the matter is that you can swing the club any way you like. There is no perfect way to do so and anyone who insists otherwise hasn't noticed that a lot of unorthodox methods have produced extraordinary results throughout golf's history. If you are that concerned about the pain in your back, you should ask the pro if he can accommodate your current posture. If he is a good teacher he will be able to do so, though you will probably get his explanation as to why he doesn't recommend it.

Again, instructors use what they know has worked for others for the most part. If he truly understands the physics of the swing he should be able to grant your request to use your current address posture.

If you asked me if you could swing like you are standing in your photo I would grant that you could. I would have to tailor a swing just for you and I could. I couldn't guarantee that it would be as efficient as the "model", but definitely something that would work. You might even end up hurting your back worse because the torque involved in the golf swing would no longer be along a straight spine.

People forget that until relatively recently, golf instruction did not exist in the form that it does today. Most just figured it out for themselves. Many did it quite well in fact. As an instructor I have to admit that the average golfer hasn't gotten any better at all since the instruction boom began. We merely are supposed to speed up the learning process and eliminate a lot of trial and error. Granted there has been a decent amount of scientific study done recently to help us out.

If you have to do it your way, by all means go ahead. Take what you want from the current wisdom and throw out what you don't. Then after you have consistent results with your swing, good or bad, go see a pro just to tweak you for what specifically you want to achieve.

Tom

[dave39]

Definitely keep going with your lessons. Lessons are a good thing because you can have someone watch your swing and pick out what you might not normally notice.

[Mr Eagle]

Keep with the lessons Gooner,If you can develop a good repeatable swing the inconsistancies in your game will be a thing of the past.

[mikelz]

You look way hunched over to me.

other than that, it looks fine to me

[larlev]

If you have lower back pain when playing....first you need to get that checked, don't ever mess around w/ back issues.(especially as young as you are) Second if nothing is wrong then you prob. should start some type of strength training to get the back stronger so you can get into a athletic posture.

[Avid Golfer]

It is this extreme inconsistency, as well as being an essential part of my high school's team that inspired me and my dad to find me some lessons. One of my dad's coworkers suggested a guy about an hour and a half of a drive away from my house, so it's not exactly convenient.

It sounds to me like your instructor may not be explaining the specific reasons behind the changes, and the degree to which the changes should be made. Not understanding the reasons for the changes, and how the changes will effect your game will make them difficult to accept. Making the changes to too high of a degree can make the swing worse.

Regarding your right hand grip: The right hand grip effects when your right wrist hinges, your right arm position at the top of the swing, and how high you hit the ball (as a result of its impact position). With a strong right hand grip your right wrist will hinge later (see the swings of Greg Norman, Fred Couples, Davis Love, and Retief Goosen), with a more neutral/weaker right hand grip the wrist hinges earlier (see the swings of Ernie Els, Nick Faldo, Charles Howell, and Trevor Immelman). A stronger right hand grip usually results in the club swinging deeper behind you and lower, and a weaker right hand grip usually results in the club staying more in front of the chest and a slightly higher right arm position at the top. A stronger right hand grip usually results in a lower ball flight, and a weaker right hand grip usually results in a higher ball flight. If you're going to weaken your grip the right hand palm should point toward the target at setup (see pictures of the pros noted above). (If you weaken it too much, so that the palm starts to face the ground you've changed it too much). A straight spine makes it easier to make a level rotation with the shoulders and maintain a consistent height during the swing. Nick Faldo went through the same posture change, a slumped back to a straight back with the hips pushed back, and said at first it felt like it was as likely to produce a good golf swing as standing on his head. With the hips back/butt out position it is important to keep the hips high too. If you push the butt out too much your spine will move from being straight into an S shape. The knee flex and wieght on the toes can be over done. The top pro golfers and their instructors say that your knees should be just slightly flexed. If you flex them too much you're likely to get your weight out of place and come out of your posture during the swing. Ideally you want your weight balanced near the center of your feet to just slight toward the toes (the balls of your feet). Getting the weight too much on your toes can be just as bad as getting it too much on the heels. Your instructor may have advocated the wieght on toes to get you to feel the extreme opposite of what you were doing. My advice is to guard against doing any of the changes to too much of an extreme. Experiment with different degrees of the changes on the range until you get good contact and solid ball flight. If you still have another lesson with the instructor ask him lots of why and how much questions if he can't explain it to your satisfaction then you may want to look for another instructor (closer to home). If you decide not to continue with him, and he asks if you want to schedule more lessons you could tell him you need time to get comfortable with the new changes first before you add more, and once that happens you may schedule more. It's my belief that when you make setup changes you should see immediate changes to your contact and ball flight. Some changes should feel comfortable right away, and others may take a little while to get used to (feeling better contact and seeing a better ball flight should help with that ). You might also find it beneficial to have someone take pictures of you at setup, or video tape your swing so that you can see the changes you are making, and how much of a change is actually occuring compared to what you feel. Then also compare your setup to the setup of the pros. The more your setup reflects the setup of good pros the better chances you'll have of making a good swing. Below is a link that has pictures of Retief Goosen and setup and during the swing. When you look at his setup you see that: he sets up with tall posture (His hips are pushed back, but not too much. His knees are slightly flexed , not bent severly. Finally he appears balanced, not with an extreme amount of weight on the toes or the heels). http://www.golftoday.co.uk/proshop/f..._sequence.html

[Shindig]

Like I said, that wasn't directed at you, but sometimes there is very little thought put into responses.

So, the reason I brought this up is that I know lots of people who think a swing change will fix their scores. From what I knew when I posted it, I didn't know if this was or wasn't the case for you. It seems now that the full swings will be the ones to bring you improvement.

That having been said, lots of responses of that form probably have little thought. It is a knee-jerk reaction to go through priorities, and if my asking it bothered you, I'm sorry.

[Arsenal Forever]

So, the reason I brought this up is that I know lots of people who think a swing change will fix their scores. From what I knew when I posted it, I didn't know if this was or wasn't the case for you. It seems now that the full swings will be the ones to bring you improvement.

No, no, it just made me kind of realize the redundancy in the repetition of it.

If there was a misunderstanding with anyone, I don't suffer any kind of back pain at all now, but I can already feel it coming when I try out the stance my teacher has taught. Thanks for the help so far. Would it be a total loss and a waste of money to perhaps spend the cash and see another teacher after these lessons are over to see if perhaps he says the same exact thing, or can help me keep my current or slightly different, less painful posture with some things to make up for the faults? The main problem I have is my grip. He says my strong right handed grip causes the face to close every now and then, but it's even gotten hard for me to swing with the grip more weak.

[larlev]

No, no, it just made me kind of realize the redundancy in the repetition of it.

OK...I have to be honest here....Your posture is bad in the pic....any good teacher is going to say the same thing, I have been to 2 diff. people when I was getting lessons and they both said I had bad posture and before I continue I needed to correct this. You will HURT your back if your not turning w/ a straight spine, this will not be argued by anyone..it's fact. Try the drills I spoke of previously, it took a good 2 weeks before I was comfortable with the correct posture. You need to have a solid base before you work on the swing... Sounds like this guy knows what he's talking about....you have to practice what he is telling you...it won't happen overnight....be a little more patient I just read some of you other posts and I am confused....you already score decent on 9 holes, and play for your HS team. What exactly where you hoping to get out of the instruction your taking??

[Arsenal Forever]

I just read some of you other posts and I am confused....you already score decent on 9 holes, and play for your HS team.

To get better? I thought that's what everyone took lessons for.

And as I said I believe, I'm extremely inconsistent and when I had lessons in mind I figured if I could pinpoint what I was doing wrong I could perhaps some days stop an incoming collapse. My driving also sucks, to be honest. I can't even really hit my first hybrid well anymore either, the farthest safe club I have is my 26* Hybrid.