Bushnell Launch Pro vs Foresight GC3

[billchao]

27 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I think this discussion has clarified one thing beyond a shadow of a doubt. If I want one of these fully featured, I will have to either:

1 - Pay $7500-ish.

2 - Pay $3000-ish and then rent the software for $800 per year. 

In truth, I'm thinking the first option may be better for me. 

I'd be anxious to hear what others think, but here's my thought. 

If I just buy the software rather then rent it. I don't have to worry about the software going up in price. What if two years from now it's $1000 per year. Then two years later maybe $1500 per year. (Possible exaggeration, but I think you get my point.) Plus, my guess is I will use this for more than 5 years. From what I've seen and read the software is either buy it, or rent it. It doesn't look like there's a rent-to-own option. They WILL however allow you to finance the whole thing, so maybe that's kind of the rent-to-own option. 

I'm still not sure.

It’s kind of like the lease vs buy a car argument, right? If you’re planning on using it for five years or more and can afford it, buying the software seems like the way to go.

Renting the software might make sense if you’re a professional and want to write off the expense every year or something.

[jshots]

 

 

44 minutes ago, iacas said:

@billchao answered this one pretty well.

Let's be clear that this is your opinion… it's not a fact that this is a "good" or "bad" thing.

It's just the way they're choosing to do business.

You own the hardware. If you want to write your own software to interface with it, go for it.

As is their right. They aren't tricking you into buying the hardware.

I'm a software developer. Should I just offer Analyzr for free because someone bought a Mac? Apple, BTW, offers its OS for free… but sells subscriptions to music and other services. Are they evil because you can't watch movies on your computer unless you also pay for AppleTV (or Netflix, etc.)?

Not remotely accurate. Hell, I've seen $10,000 to software unlock some things. Not in the golf industry.

The FlightScope Xi/Xi+/Xi Tour was the same hardware. What differed across the price range? The software. Ditto for the Mevo+/Pro Package, as Bill noted.

To you.

Sounds like a guy who hasn't written/developed/maintained software, perhaps…?

Who says?

And if they've locked it down… that's their right, right? They're not tricking you into thinking you can run "jshotsGC3.exe" and then, after finishing the transaction, saying "BTW just joking bro!"

 

Ummmm, thing is, there are hardware solutions like that out there.

The Mevo+ works with this thing, for example: 

Awesome Golf

All that said, I don't think this is the type of discussion Chet was looking to have here, so maybe we should all sort of respect his desire(s) for this topic (or at least clarify them so he can get the discussion he'd like to have?).

Of course, all just my opinions.

I make a living as a software engineer and am just not a huge fan of the closed software system business model. Fine to disagree, but have fun with your gc3 in 3 years when the new software comes out and there is another $1k upgrade and another and another $150 for every new course you want. I'm just saying, if you pay high dollar for something you should expect (my opinion) the company to build the product in your best interest, locking down the system is only in their best interest. Also, its my understanding that you can't really build custom software for gc4/gc3 easily because all of the data coming off is encrypted.

I would love to get a Mevo+ but don't have the space in the garage needed for radar. So I sit and wait for the Uneekor Eye Mini because they are known for supporting the third party software, AND they have some of the best software of their own. Could easily see bushnell dropping prices when eye mini comes out as well.

 

1 hour ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I'm not trying to pile on. But I promise you, that you are wrong about this. Hardware is simple. Get proper components put them together. Once that job is done, move on to the next design. Software is not simple. It has to work across multiple platforms, it has to be constantly updated. It has to be constantly supported. The company I work for has 4 software people for every 1 hardware person. But that really doesn't matter. Again, if you don't feel their software is worth $4k then don't buy it. 

If a Tesla cost $3K everyone would own one. Today the market cost for this technology is $7500. You obviously feel that's too much. That's fine. Don't buy it. 5-10 years ago, the only option like this was the GCQuad and it was $20K. In five years, perhaps it will be much less. You can always wait. In the late 1970's my family got a microwave oven. It was just under $900. Which is equivalent to about $3700 in today's money. Wait a few years the price of the technology often goes down. Eventually the same may be true of personal launch monitors. 

 

This is off topic, but what you are referring to really isn't the same thing. The lawsuit you are talking about is that John Deere currently only licenses diagnostic tool software to "Authorized" John Deere repair centers. They recently trimmed back the number of "Authorized" repair houses by about one-half. This has far more to do with John Deere trying to only authorize repair centers that use genuine John Deere parts. The lawsuit you are referring to is about who should be allowed to repair John Deere equipment. It has absolutely nothing to do with farmers paying for upgrades to the performance of their equipment. 

 

You could always build your own. It's only 3 high-speed cameras and a computer. 

 

This couldn't be further from the truth. Again, I'm not piling on. But there are bunches of launch monitors on the market today. 

I have to assume this line is a joke. So, I'll joke right back: A good engineering friendly consumer would just buy the software that an entire team of people have developed. 😁

I had a college buddy who went to work for Sony in the 90's. Sony sold the PlayStations at a loss. Because they knew it would be no good to anyone without the software (i.e. games). Sony made all the Playstation money on selling games not consoles. What you are suggesting is that Bushnell or Foresight sell just hardware and let somebody else do the software. Why would anyone do that?

Look, I get it. You want the thing to be cheaper. It's not. If you want one you pay $7K to 8K-ish. Or you pay $3K and then rent the software for $800 per year. What they are doing isn't immoral. It isn't "slimy". They have to sell the thing at a price point at which they make a profit. Otherwise their employees can't feed their families. I have lots of friends and co-workers who are software engineers and/or software support people. These people do a job, provide a product and need to be paid for their efforts. 

I think its actually interesting that they chose to market it with two different payment methods. Option one, buy the hardware and the software. Option two, buy the hardware, rent the software. 

Most people have no problem paying more than a grand per year for television service or internet. Should I tell my internet provider, "Look I bought your damned box, now give me my internet for free!"? Again, I can promise you every internet provider has way way more people working on the software than the hardware. Those people again do valuable work and provide a product. They've earned a paycheck. 

Actually, Bill from what I've read I think it will spit out the numbers shown on the top of the launch monitors even without the software. So, it does have some use. Like a camera version of the Swing Caddie SC300. Just not connected to a PC or tablet or what ever. But I digress. 

Most computing platforms in our lives have a plethora of software options you can use. Foresight flat out said for example they will never support TGC2019, which has one of the absolute best databases of user generated courses available for sims. You might say its not similar to John Deere, but its along the same line of thinking when down the road you could be stuck with a brick if you don't continue paying. Software lockout is software lockout, if you're fine being locked to foresight and not worried about what that means for your expensive unit down the road then its probably a great option. You wouldn't be okay with your ford truck only running on gasoline that was sold by ford. 

 

8 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

1 - Pay $7500-ish.

2 - Pay $3000-ish and then rent the software for $800 per year. 

I think you got that right, you probably want to clarify what the deal is with FSX Play if you go Launch Pro route (is it $500 upcharge) as that is there new software with actual decent graphics and it isn't mentioned on Launch Pro page, but it is included with the base GC3 package.

[iacas]

22 minutes ago, jshots said:

I make a living as a software engineer and am just not a huge fan of the closed software system business model. Fine to disagree, but have fun with your gc3 in 3 years when the new software comes out and there is another $1k upgrade and another and another $150 for every new course you want.

I don't have a GC3, and… so? The $800 will probably go up, too, or whatever. You're a little all over the place with this stuff, man. Throwing complaints at the wall to see what sticks.

22 minutes ago, jshots said:

I'm just saying, if you pay high dollar for something

Who defines what "high dollar" is? It's not a $25k Trackman. Hell, it's not even a $13k FlightScope.

22 minutes ago, jshots said:

you should expect (my opinion) the company to build the product in your best interest, locking down the system is only in their best interest.

That's just bullshit. You just want it all for $3k (or whatever). Well, then don't get a GC3. Spend $25k and get a Trackman… with a yearly subscription for software updates.

22 minutes ago, jshots said:

Also, its my understanding that you can't really build custom software for gc4/gc3 easily because all of the data coming off is encrypted.

Then break the encryption. For personal use, I think that might actually be fine. It's your hardware.

22 minutes ago, jshots said:

but its along the same line of thinking when down the road you could be stuck with a brick if you don't continue paying

They can't really remove functionality that you've purchased, and if a software update removed a feature… you could always choose not to update.

22 minutes ago, jshots said:

You wouldn't be okay with your ford truck only running on gasoline that was sold by ford.

I see we're not done with the bad analogies. 😄

[jshots]

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

I don't have a GC3, and… so? The $800 will probably go up, too, or whatever. You're a little all over the place with this stuff, man. Throwing complaints at the wall to see what sticks.

How was I all over the place. I guess more succinctly:

Foresight locks down their software. I think that is bad and worth considering if you are in the market for a simulator.

 

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

Who defines what "high dollar" is? It's not a $25k Trackman. Hell, it's not even a $13k FlightScope.

I'd say pretty confidently that $7500 is still high dollar for most people.

 

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

That's just bullshit. You just want it all for $3k (or whatever). Well, then don't get a GC3. Spend $25k and get a Trackman… with a yearly subscription for software updates.

I want the machine that gives me the data for $3k, and to be able to choose other software (E6, TGC2019, etc.) 

 

13 minutes ago, iacas said:

I see we're not done with the bad analogies. 😄

Uh I have received awards in multiple countries for my analogies. 

 

 

@ChetlovesMer btw if you are gonna go for the $7500 upfront and are considering an overhead permanent setup you might checkout Uneekor QED which you could get into for $8000

[TourSpoon]

So @ChetlovesMer, you said you borrowed a Skytrack system. Why aren't you considering that setup versus the Bushnell/Foresight? Just curious since you have experience. 

I just struggle with the GC because you can get the Bushnell unlocked for less. I don't think I would miss the 2 courses I don't even know about. But I do get the software argument because the first tier isn't enough but add a decent iPad experience with the range display and a few more data points, and I may just bite on the base package.  I think that if radar was on the table, the Mevo + (with the add-on) is a deal compared to GC3. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by TourSpoon
clarification

[iacas]

25 minutes ago, jshots said:

Foresight locks down their software.

Everyone locks down their software. You don't think it's worth the cost, that's all.

25 minutes ago, jshots said:

I think that is bad and worth considering if you are in the market for a simulator.

Is it possible for you to understand that someone might consider it and not hate it nearly as much as you? 😄

25 minutes ago, jshots said:

I'd say pretty confidently that $7500 is still high dollar for most people.

Again, for a launch monitor, it's pretty clearly not given the LMs that cost MORE. Some much more.

25 minutes ago, jshots said:

I want the machine that gives me the data for $3k, and to be able to choose other software (E6, TGC2019, etc.)

Then that's not the GC3. 🙂

[jshots]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

Everyone locks down their software. You don't think it's worth the cost, that's all.

Is it possible for you to understand that someone might consider it and not hate it nearly as much as you? 😄

Again, for a launch monitor, it's pretty clearly not given the LMs that cost MORE. Some much more.

Then that's not the GC3. 🙂

Dude I'm just giving my opinion. Mevo+ is less locked down, Uneekor is less locked down. Maybe people don't care, maybe they do, don't matter to me I'm just trying to give some value here in the convo because I've been debating the same unit and those have been my thoughts. Mark my words the eye mini is going to give both of those units a run for their money this fall.

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, jshots said:

Dude I'm just giving my opinion.

And I am mine. Chill.

At this point I'm going to re-iterate what I said before:

2 hours ago, iacas said:

All that said, I don't think this is the type of discussion Chet was looking to have here, so maybe we should all sort of respect his desire(s) for this topic (or at least clarify them so he can get the discussion he'd like to have?).

[Denny Bang Bang]

I’ve been keeping my eye on the GC3 and Launch Pro since they came out.  At first I was considering GC3 vs Mevo+, went with the Mevo+ for now.

As I’ve been continuing to think about the GC3 vs Launch Pro, I’m leaning towards the GC3 with the Players bundle (20 courses) for $9K.  However, I’m still holding out to see what deals will arise in the coming years.  If I was good with the 10 course route, I’d pick up one of the GC3 demo units for $6K.

[ChetlovesMer]

I've been diving more and more into this. Here's what I think it breaks down like:

BUSHNELL

First, it seems to be clear that the Bushnell Hardware can be had for $2,999.99 or $272.00/mo. The software then adds either 

• $99/year. To do basic launch monitor stuff. No simulation. No visual driving range. It does give you all the usual suspects. (Carry distance, Spin rate, club head speed, etc...) The one caveat is you must have an I-pad or I-phone... No PC, No Android. 
• $399/year. Now you get some more stuff. Simulation with FSX 2020, you get a visual range, you get the 3D ball flight we all like so much, you can play rounds with up to 4 players, You get something called FSX Pro, You can now create a player and save sessions. You can record and save data on up to 14 clubs. You can even play online with friends or in tournaments. plus you get 5 courses on which to play. 
• $799/year. You get everything above but you also get to play rounds with up to 8 people. You get to store data and information on an unlimited number of clubs. Plus, you get 5 more courses. 
• One time payment of $3,999.95. For that you get everything you would get for $799/year, but you get it forever.

So, pretty easy math (even for somebody who went to Ch!cago Publ!c Sch00ls.) $2,999.99 plus $3,999,95 = $6,999.94 all in. (Plus, as others have mentioned you may not have to pay tax on the $3,999.95 part depending on in which state you live. As some stats don't tax on-line software downloads yet.)

FORESIGHT

The foresight version is $7499.00 one time all in. (You're probably paying sales tax on all of it.) So, what do you get for your extra $499.06?

It looks like you get two things:

• First you get the Foresight Sports Performance Fitting App. (Which by the way, works on both Apple and Android.)
• You also get something called Foresight Fairgrounds. (Which is kind of a cheeky golf game simulation in which you play versions of carnival games by hitting golf balls.) 

BOTH

• Both of them recommend a gaming PC for simulation. You can do launch monitor stuff with the Bushnell on your I-product and you can do all the fitting stuff and really get into the weeds on everything with Foresight on I-product or Android. But to the the full gaming/simulation experience they recommend a gaming PC. 

This is what I think I know so far. 

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by ChetlovesMer

[ChetlovesMer]

I found one more thing that I forgot to mention above. 

• $399/year. Now you get some more stuff. Simulation with FSX 2020, you get a visual range, you get the 3D ball flight we all like so much, you can play rounds with up to 4 players, You get something called FSX Pro, You can now create a player and save sessions. You can record and save data on up to 14 clubs. You can even play online with friends or in tournaments. plus you get 5 courses on which to play. 
• $799/year. You get everything above but you also get to play rounds with up to 8 people. You get to store data and information on an unlimited number of clubs. Plus, you get 5 more courses. You also get club data. Including Spin Tilt Axis, Back Spin, Side Spin, Club Path (needs club-face stickers), and Angle of Attack (again, needs club-face stickers.) 

Sorry, somehow I forgot to put that in the difference between the $399/year plan and the $799/year plan. That data is probably pretty important to a lot of people and might be one of the reasons they are getting such a device in the first place. 

[billchao]

5 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Both of them recommend a gaming PC for simulation.

Better add another grand or two to the total.

[ChetlovesMer]

24 minutes ago, billchao said:

Better add another grand or two to the total.

I know. I thought about that. I have a laptop (about 7 years old or so) that I used when I was borrowing the Skytrak which worked fine. 
It seems to have all the horsepower required according to their recommendations EXCEPT not the graphics card they recommend. I wonder if I could just update the graphics card and use it for the Bushnell or Foresight? Or, I wonder if I tried to use it without the graphics card, would it work, but just be a little grainy? 🤷‍♂️

[billchao]

53 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I know. I thought about that. I have a laptop (about 7 years old or so) that I used when I was borrowing the Skytrak which worked fine. 
It seems to have all the horsepower required according to their recommendations EXCEPT not the graphics card they recommend. I wonder if I could just update the graphics card and use it for the Bushnell or Foresight? Or, I wonder if I tried to use it without the graphics card, would it work, but just be a little grainy? 🤷‍♂️

Yea, the graphics card would be the limiting factor if the image is detailed and makes rapid changes (such as the background when the camera is framed around the golf ball while flying through the air). That requires processing power.

I don't know if it would work. My experience with these things is limited to gaming and I can tell you that it depends. Some games can run with the settings lowered, some drop framerates or have other noticeable delays, and others simply don't run at all. Being able to upgrade the graphics card on a laptop is also not a guarantee. You'd have to look into it.

[TourSpoon]

You got me really thinking about it lately and I actually called Bushnell and asked if it had to be a PC or could you run a laptop. They said no problem with the laptop as long as it met the specs. I think you can get out under a grand with one that would run it. I thought, get started with a laptop and go from there to a monitor. I don't see the big screen - theater style set-up in my future, but a nice return net and monitor is doable along with the ability to bring it to a range/short game area. I see so much value in the wedge game with this tool.  The iPad basic version was also talked about, but it is just missing some key info that I don't think you need the BLP to get. 

I also talked to my fitter who gave me some perspective. He recommended to get all the data parameters (ya, he knows me well) but really harped on club path and face angles as a way to improve ball striking. He also said that $799 a year is a lot better than Trackman. He was going give me more information this weekend after he calls Bushnell to see if he can be a dealer. 

I will ask again why you aren't considering Skytrak.  My thoughts are it isn't the same level as the BLP, and the money really isn't the factor so why not upgrade.  If I just wanted to knock around with a game sim with friends, that may be a different story, but for my use I want a better machine. The Trackman has spoiled me. 

So my thoughts are that I don't see myself going all in with the unlimited, but would probably do a yearly membership just to see if it panned out for me. The unlimited just doesn't make sense until I know I would use it a lot. We are also planning to move in the next year so I have to be patient.  Ideally, the set-up would be a poolside patio net on a big screen, as we won't have a basement or large rec room.  

Anyway, keep us updated. 

 

 

[ChetlovesMer]

So, a buddy of mine said I should check out Ernest Sports Launch Monitors. 

Anyone ever see one of these out there?

Tour Plus | Ernest Sports

 

[jshots]

11 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

So, a buddy of mine said I should check out Ernest Sports Launch Monitors. 

Anyone ever see one of these out there?

Tour Plus | Ernest Sports

 

Never used one. Golf simulator videos guy seems to get some inaccurate data occasionally, but usually it seems decent. 

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

So, a buddy of mine said I should check out Ernest Sports Launch Monitors. 

Anyone ever see one of these out there?

Tour Plus | Ernest Sports

 

Yeah, don't get those. They're "fine" but that's not what you're looking for, I don't believe.