Motorcycle Move With Right Hand?

[ZANDER1994]

So this past year I worked on one thing and one thing only: swing plane. I completely rebuilt the way I swing (including my grip) and can say with confidence I am no longer coming over the top. My scores have dropped significantly. I no longer slice the ball and I am seeing consistent in-to-out swing paths on my launch monitor. That being said, I still predominantly hit a fade and my miss is often a push that fades slightly. My launch monitor shows an open face to path ratio more than 95% of the time with my stock swing. On slow motion stills I have noticed my clubface is slightly closed at the top but because I struggle with a cupped wrist, by the time I am at P6, the club face is wide open. 
 

I have been researching ways to correct this and I discovered this week the “motorcycle move” is very effective for me. I can produce a closed face to path ratio consistently by simply feeling a twist as I bring the club down. The only thing is, everyone talks about doing this move with your lead (left) hand. I find it incredibly difficult to feel any closing motion with my left hand, but the right hand is very easy to twist. I simply think of my right V between my pointer and my thumb twisting to the left and that seems to work for me and I start hitting draws. 
 

Is there any issue with feeling this motion in the right hand as opposed to the left? Or are they the same thing? At the end of the day I am probably going to keep doing it because it works, but I just wanted to hear from anyone else who consciously does this move if you feel any sensation in the right hand as you do it. Thanks. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by ZANDER1994

[GolfLug]

Yes, 'revving the motorcycle', ' turning the door knob', are a successful move that work for many. But from my experience it is a variable that can be overdone to start hooking if your turn rate stalls.

Start a swing thread. 

[iacas]

Your hands are together on the grip, so if one twists the face closed… the other will do that, too. It basically has to.

Also, @GolfLug…

[Warlock]

I'm assuming that the 'motorcycle move' closes the clubface relative to the swing path in the early downswing so that you don't have to rotate the forearms as much in the late downswing to square the clubface by impact?  I've always wondered how they can prove whether that actually happens or not.

For example, if I got into an impact fix position with a flat left wrist and then just purely bowed it, won't the shaft move more inside relative to the ball-target line? Wouldn't the clubface be actually more open to the ball-target line? 

Is the motorcycle move just pure flexion of the lead wrist or is it flexion combined with a bit of supination?

[boogielicious]

9 hours ago, Warlock said:

Is the motorcycle move just pure flexion of the lead wrist or is it flexion combined with a bit of supination?

It is palmar flexion, but there will be rotation of the wrists and forearms as you turn too. I’m a bit cupped at the top and flatten during transition. I extend too. This video below kind of explains what it is. 

 

[iacas]

10 hours ago, Warlock said:

For example, if I got into an impact fix position with a flat left wrist and then just purely bowed it, won't the shaft move more inside relative to the ball-target line? Wouldn't the clubface be actually more open to the ball-target line? 

I don't know what move you're doing… but no.

[Warlock]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

I don't know what move you're doing… but no.

Difficult to explain in words but I tried to draw some pictures below.

 

[iacas]

19 minutes ago, Warlock said:

Difficult to explain in words but I tried to draw some pictures below.

Yeah, that's not just palmar flexion or rotating the shaft around itself - that's also pushing the handle forward. If anything, palmar flexion would move the shaft backward a bit if you keep the lead forearm in the same place.

[Warlock]

18 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yeah, that's not just palmar flexion or rotating the shaft around itself - that's also pushing the handle forward. If anything, palmar flexion would move the shaft backward a bit if you keep the lead forearm in the same place.

So is bowing the lead wrist a better way to get forward shaft lean rather than a means of early clubface closure relative to club path?

[iacas]

47 minutes ago, Warlock said:

So is bowing the lead wrist a better way to get forward shaft lean rather than a means of early clubface closure relative to club path?

It's not as simple as that.

[Warlock]

On 10/14/2022 at 5:07 PM, iacas said:

It's not as simple as that.

Would this statement cover it better?

"The wrist are very complexed. You have to look at both to really determine how the club is being manipulated.

First of all, a position in and of itself neither opens or closes the club face. So these players having flexed lead wrist does not mean they have closed the club. The grip has a lot to do with what is happening as well.

As a very general rule a player with a lot of flexion in their wrist at the top will actually start closing the club face later than one with a lot of extension. I am talking about world class players here. After club transition flexed players will tend to move toward extension a bit before going hard back to flexion.

I cannot think of a player off the top of my head that does not have less supination at impact than when they started. This is a tricky measurement though. AMM does not do the shoulder girdles so that can alter it some.

Moving toward flexion closes the club face at the top but then acts and opens it at impact. Pronation/Supination takes the in and out of plane until you get more ulnar deviation then lead supination/ trail pronation closes it.

I would need to do a complete study but I would doubt highly that there is less or more forearm movement in a flexed wrist over a extended one. If you are talking about higher or lower ROC I would also say that is a myth. It is what people want to believe. It fits nicely with a narrative."

 

[iacas]

57 minutes ago, Warlock said:

"The wrist are very complexed. You have to look at both to really determine how the club is being manipulated.

I imagine you mean "complicated" and not "complexed" but yeah, of course you often have to look at both wrists, as they're often not attached in the same orientation as other golfers, people have different ranges of motion… etc.

57 minutes ago, Warlock said:

As a very general rule a player with a lot of flexion in their wrist at the top will actually start closing the club face later than one with a lot of extension. I am talking about world class players here.

They generally have "farther" to go, sure.

57 minutes ago, Warlock said:

I cannot think of a player off the top of my head that does not have less supination at impact than when they started. This is a tricky measurement though. AMM does not do the shoulder girdles so that can alter it some.

First one I thought who might be…

That is of course in spite of the shoulders being more open, etc.

But generally… sure.

57 minutes ago, Warlock said:

Moving toward flexion closes the club face at the top but then acts and opens it at impact.

I don't really agree with that statement.

57 minutes ago, Warlock said:

I would need to do a complete study but I would doubt highly that there is less or more forearm movement in a flexed wrist over a extended one. If you are talking about higher or lower ROC I would also say that is a myth. It is what people want to believe. It fits nicely with a narrative."

I'm not sure what roads you're trying to go down here. 😄 

Here's a short video I made today:

The face doesn't really open in either of the movements I make.

Generally speaking, though, the wrists will almost purely twist the club when it's perpendicular to the forearm because that's the axis that aligns it with the wrist. But ulnar deviation doesn't change the orientation of the wrist, and you can still palmar flex the wrist while getting a lot of rotation about the shaft.

[Warlock]

14 hours ago, iacas said:

I imagine you mean "complicated" and not "complexed" but yeah, of course you often have to look at both wrists, as they're often not attached in the same orientation as other golfers, people have different ranges of motion… etc.

They generally have "farther" to go, sure.

First one I thought who might be…

That is of course in spite of the shoulders being more open, etc.

But generally… sure.

I don't really agree with that statement.

I'm not sure what roads you're trying to go down here. 😄 

Here's a short video I made today:

The face doesn't really open in either of the movements I make.

Generally speaking, though, the wrists will almost purely twist the club when it's perpendicular to the forearm because that's the axis that aligns it with the wrist. But ulnar deviation doesn't change the orientation of the wrist, and you can still palmar flex the wrist while getting a lot of rotation about the shaft.

Many thanks for this video.

I am basically trying to understand the swing geometry of what's going on when one performs the 'reverse motorcycle move' purely from an academic standpoint.

If the bowed wrist was maintained (say from P6) and the downswing progressed so that the clubface was about 15 inches from the ball, wouldn't the shaft be more angulated to the inside of the ball/target line and therefore the clubface more open approaching impact (as in picture D that I previously posted)? I am assuming that there will still be some angle between the lead forearm and club shaft  (ie. some radial deviation in the lead wrist) while retaining that bowed wrist position.

The statement I posted was from Jon Sinclair, but I must admit I had trouble getting my head around his sentence "I cannot think of a player off the top of my head that does not have less supination at impact than when they started."

I'm assuming he means that most players he's measured have less lead forearm supination at impact (ie. more pronated) than at address.

PS. 

Hooray!  I've just received an email explanation from Dave Tutelman which I now understand, so no need for any more answers to my questions.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Warlock

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Warlock said:

Hooray!  I've just received an email explanation from Dave Tutelman which I now understand, so no need for any more answers to my questions.

Post it here, please.

1 hour ago, Warlock said:

I am basically trying to understand the swing geometry of what's going on when one performs the 'reverse motorcycle move' purely from an academic standpoint.

Okay. Thing is, people will do it differently, and the specific orientation of your hands with respect to each other as well as with respect to the clubface will change how/when movements change things.

1 hour ago, Warlock said:

If the bowed wrist was maintained (say from P6) and the downswing progressed so that the clubface was about 15 inches from the ball, wouldn't the shaft be more angulated to the inside of the ball/target line and therefore the clubface more open approaching impact (as in picture D that I previously posted)?

No, not necessarily. Plus you seem to be assuming that something wouldn't have already been done to account for that if it was to have occurred, which it undoubtedly would have been… because the person doesn't want to miss the golf ball.

1 hour ago, Warlock said:

I am assuming that there will still be some angle between the lead forearm and club shaft  (ie. some radial deviation in the lead wrist) while retaining that bowed wrist position.

There's pretty much always "some angle" there. With a grip in the fingers, you'd need a crazy amount of ulnar deviation to get the shaft inline with the radius/ulna/forearm.

1 hour ago, Warlock said:

The statement I posted was from Jon Sinclair, but I must admit I had trouble getting my head around his sentence "I cannot think of a player off the top of my head that does not have less supination at impact than when they started."

Then why didn't you quote that? I'd probably have still responded the same way, but I might also have sent a message to Jon if I knew it was his quote, and not your own. This is pushing into intellectually dishonest territory there, misrepresenting who says specific things. You said "I" as if it was you and haven't mentioned Jon at all until now.

And you didn't respond to my photos of the other Jon… Jon Rahm.

So what did Tutelman say and what's the context? Post it, please.

[iacas]

Scott Cowx: 3 Tour Player Wrist Patterns - HackMotion

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PGA Tour coach Scott Cowx explains 3 Tour Player Lead Wrist Patterns Using the HackMotion Sensor's Data.

1 hour ago, iacas said:

So what did Tutelman say and what's the context? Post it, please.

Not to distract from that.

[Warlock]

6 hours ago, iacas said:

Post it here, please.

Okay. Thing is, people will do it differently, and the specific orientation of your hands with respect to each other as well as with respect to the clubface will change how/when movements change things.

No, not necessarily. Plus you seem to be assuming that something wouldn't have already been done to account for that if it was to have occurred, which it undoubtedly would have been… because the person doesn't want to miss the golf ball.

There's pretty much always "some angle" there. With a grip in the fingers, you'd need a crazy amount of ulnar deviation to get the shaft inline with the radius/ulna/forearm.

Then why didn't you quote that? I'd probably have still responded the same way, but I might also have sent a message to Jon if I knew it was his quote, and not your own. This is pushing into intellectually dishonest territory there, misrepresenting who says specific things. You said "I" as if it was you and haven't mentioned Jon at all until now.

And you didn't respond to my photos of the other Jon… Jon Rahm.

So what did Tutelman say and what's the context? Post it, please.

I put quotation marks around that statement just to show it wasn't me but now you accuse me of:

Intellectually dishonest territory!!!!!  

Misrepresenting who says specific things !!!!

Goodbye!

 

 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Warlock said:

I put quotation marks around that statement just to show it wasn't me but now you accuse me of:

Intellectually dishonest territory!!!!!  

Misrepresenting who says specific things !!!!

Goodbye!

Ummmm, it's right up there for anyone to see, but you said  basically "does this say it better?" and then quoted stuff without attributing it to anyone else. The quotes read as a way of off-setting a block of text that you were writing yourself to see if it "said it better," not as a quote from someone else entirely.

And… the proper response would have been something like "yeah, sorry, that was a quote from Jon, I should have mentioned that."

[Phil McGleno]

2 hours ago, Warlock said:

I put quotation marks around that statement just to show it wasn't me but now you accuse me of:

Intellectually dishonest territory!!!!! 

Buddy-I do not know what to say except Erik is right here-quotes do not say that the way you used them.

I read it as he did-As separating the stuff you were talking about.

I can put "quotes" around that word but it is still my word-I am not quoting Jon Sinclair or anyone else.-You are wrong here. And then you behave like a child.

ERik has been more than helpful here with you even though you only ever ask questions and TAKE.-You do not contribute much-you contribute to starting discussions so I am not saying that-Just that you do not contribute information that you originate.

And you did not here while misrepresenting who said what.

You should apologize and I think everyone will let it slide.-EVeryone can have a bad day and you seem to be having one right now.