Golf Is Becoming Too Much Like Other Sports?

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, klineka said:

Let's put it this way, surely you don't think that strict adherence to etiquette and traditional golf has brought more people from newer generations to the game, right?

I think there needs to be a balance, golf shouldn't aspire to attract everyone by completely giving up on traditional etiquette.  I know you're not advocating that, but I do see people who think both rules and standards of behavior should be "dumbed down" to the lowest possible level.  I think the expectation that a player will be courteous and considerate to others should continue to be part of the attraction.  And for those who do NOT want to be held to some behavioral standards, want to be free to behave like self-centered jerks, please stay away from golf, play basketball or some other sport where that's standard behavior.

[Lerrin]

6 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I think there needs to be a balance, golf shouldn't aspire to attract everyone by completely giving up on traditional etiquette.  I know you're not advocating that, but I do see people who think both rules and standards of behavior should be "dumbed down" to the lowest possible level.  I think the expectation that a player will be courteous and considerate to others should continue to be part of the attraction.  And for those who do NOT want to be held to some behavioral standards, want to be free to behave like self-centered jerks, please stay away from golf, play basketball, or some other sport where that's standard behavior.

I agree with you that golf should maintain its traditional etiquette. Etiquette is an important part of the game. I understand that some people believe that etiquette is outdated or unnecessary, but in my short time playing I have learned that without it there is no place.

[CrashTestDummy]

2 hours ago, klineka said:

Nothing wrong that that, IMO. Change is good.

Because it most likely has been a roadblock. Probably not the largest roadblock since affordability/accessibility to the game, equipment, etc is likely a larger roadblock, but still a roadblock nonetheless. "traditional" golf and how people viewed golfers say 20 years ago needed to evolve to capture the attention of younger audiences as the baby boomer generation phases out of the game and eventually will no longer be a living demographic.

Let's put it this way, surely you don't think that strict adherence to etiquette and traditional golf has brought more people from newer generations to the game, right?

 

 

Growing the game is fine, but not at the expense of etiquette and respect for other people on the golf course. 

 

 

[CrashTestDummy]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

I think there needs to be a balance, golf shouldn't aspire to attract everyone by completely giving up on traditional etiquette.  I know you're not advocating that, but I do see people who think both rules and standards of behavior should be "dumbed down" to the lowest possible level.  I think the expectation that a player will be courteous and considerate to others should continue to be part of the attraction.  And for those who do NOT want to be held to some behavioral standards, want to be free to behave like self-centered jerks, please stay away from golf, play basketball or some other sport where that's standard behavior.

But I have seen the game change to be at the expense of etiquette and respect for other players on the golf course. Golfers are showing less and less consideration for anybody else but themselves on the golf course. That is a not a good trend. 

[DaveP043]

Just now, CrashTestDummy said:

But I have seen the game change to be at the expense of etiquette and respect for other players on the golf course. Golfers are showing less and less consideration for anybody else but themselves on the golf course. That is a not a good trend. 

As I said, there has to be some kind of balance.  Some change is positive, relaxation of dress codes is fine, allowing music is fine, overall increases in celebration are fine.  I'm OK with all of those, until they cross some kind of line into being completely inconsiderate of other people (I first wrote players, but I include everyone around the golf course).  There were asshole on the golf course before the current trend of changes, and there will be assholes afterwards too.  

[CrashTestDummy]

6 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

As I said, there has to be some kind of balance.  Some change is positive, relaxation of dress codes is fine, allowing music is fine, overall increases in celebration are fine.  I'm OK with all of those, until they cross some kind of line into being completely inconsiderate of other people (I first wrote players, but I include everyone around the golf course).  There were asshole on the golf course before the current trend of changes, and there will be assholes afterwards too.  

Yes, you agree with that change is positive, but not at the expense of etiquette and consideration of others on the golf course, but that is not what has been happening. The etiquette and consideration of other players on the golf course is much worse. So, it is on a bad trend and likely to not get better. I think that is bad for "growing the game."

[DaveP043]

11 minutes ago, CrashTestDummy said:

The etiquette and consideration of other players on the golf course is much worse. So, it is on a bad trend and likely to not get better

We'll have to simply disagree.  I do see some inconsiderate people, but they're still pretty rare.  I volunteer as a rules official, and work at a fair number of junior competitions throughout the year, and I see really respectful considerate young people playing the game.  

[iacas]

8 hours ago, CrashTestDummy said:

Yes, you agree with that change is positive, but not at the expense of etiquette and consideration of others on the golf course, but that is not what has been happening. The etiquette and consideration of other players on the golf course is much worse. So, it is on a bad trend and likely to not get better. I think that is bad for "growing the game."

I honestly don't see it much, either.

Please give some examples.

[phillyk]

9 hours ago, CrashTestDummy said:

But I have seen the game change to be at the expense of etiquette and respect for other players on the golf course. Golfers are showing less and less consideration for anybody else but themselves on the golf course. That is a not a good trend. 

Especially some of the best golfers. I’m at a qualifier where a mini tour player willingly smoked it over the heads of beginner golfers to pass them in a practice round. It’s not the first time I’ve been in a group that they did it either.

Who’s job is it to enforce etiquette? Parents or the golf course? In every single Get Golf Ready class I instruct, I talk etiquette and pace of play. The golf courses must hire and put policies in place to uphold etiquette. Outside of the course, lets push it hard!

[CrashTestDummy]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

I honestly don't see it much, either.

Please give some examples.

Plenty of examples. You are a golfer and know what good etiquette should be. 

[CrashTestDummy]

2 hours ago, phillyk said:

Especially some of the best golfers. I’m at a qualifier where a mini tour player willingly smoked it over the heads of beginner golfers to pass them in a practice round. It’s not the first time I’ve been in a group that they did it either.

Who’s job is it to enforce etiquette? Parents or the golf course? In every single Get Golf Ready class I instruct, I talk etiquette and pace of play. The golf courses must hire and put policies in place to uphold etiquette. Outside of the course, lets push it hard!

Parents and golf instructors should teach etiquette. My dad did not allow me on the course until he felt I was proficient enough to play decently on a course to keep pace and knew all the etiquette. He started me on executive courses and then moved me up to regulation courses. I think beginner golfers should start on executive short courses to get their games proficient enough before they go to regulation courses. Very slow play affects everyone behind them on the course and I'm not an advocate of super fast play. Keeping a steady pace of play is good etiquette.  4.5 hour rounds for 4 players walking is  a good goal. I play public tracks and play with a lot of high handicappers. I don't mind as long as they are nice people, can keep pace, and know golf etiquette. It is extremely rare to play with any players that have similar handicaps as me on the public tracks. 

 

Public golf courses don't really care much about etiquette. They just care about getting more people playing the course. Private course don't care if people play at all. As long as they have plenty of members and they are paying their dues. 

[iacas]

8 hours ago, CrashTestDummy said:

Plenty of examples. You are a golfer and know what good etiquette should be. 

You're the one suggesting there's big change, so I asked you to give some.

My daughter played junior and now college golf. I coached college golf. I teach golf, and have played at private clubs and public courses.

8 hours ago, CrashTestDummy said:

I think beginner golfers should start on executive short courses to get their games proficient enough before they go to regulation courses.

Some places don't have executive courses. And… hitting driver can be fun.

[klineka]

8 hours ago, CrashTestDummy said:

Plenty of examples. You are a golfer and know what good etiquette should be. 

"The Earth is flat"

"Provide examples"

"Plenty of evidence, you have eyes and can see that it's flat"

@CrashTestDummy You're the one making the claim, give some examples to support your claim.

[DaveP043]

13 hours ago, phillyk said:

Especially some of the best golfers. I’m at a qualifier where a mini tour player willingly smoked it over the heads of beginner golfers to pass them in a practice round. It’s not the first time I’ve been in a group that they did it either.

Who’s job is it to enforce etiquette? 

In general, I think it falls to players to educate other players.  In your specific case, I hope I'd have reported the player to the Committee, and I'd hope the Committee would have DQed him for "serious misconduct".  That's pretty clearly "so far removed from what is expected in golf that the most severe sanction of removing a player from the competition is justified."  To ignore it is to tell those "beginner golfers" that boorish behavior is acceptable if done by a good enough player.

[CrashTestDummy]

2 hours ago, klineka said:

"The Earth is flat"

"Provide examples"

"Plenty of evidence, you have eyes and can see that it's flat"

@CrashTestDummy You're the one making the claim, give some examples to support your claim.

Looks like you really are not familiar with the rules of etiquette. Perhaps it would be good to learn about the rules of etiquette before going to the course. Here you can read the USGA and PGA rules on etiquette, basic rules of the course, and examples. 

USGA Rules of Etiquette

* Golfers should always show consideration for other individuals on the course and should not disturb play by moving, talking, or making unnecessary noise, including playing loud music.

* Golfers should ensure that any electronic device taken onto the course does not distract other players.

* On the teeing ground, a golfer should not tee a ball until it is his/her turn to play.

* Players should not stand close to or directly behind the ball or directly behind the hole when a golfer is about to play.

On the Putting Green

* Golfers should not stand on or cast a shadow over another player’s line of putt when he/she is making a stroke.

* Players should remain on or near the putting green until all other players in the group have holed out.

 

https://www.cityofmontrose.org/DocumentCenter/View/29073/Black-Canyon-Golf-Course-Rules-and-Etiquette?bidId=

 

Golf for Beginners: Golf Etiquette, Rules and Glossary

---

What to expect during a round of golf, from beginning to end.

 

[klineka]

53 minutes ago, CrashTestDummy said:

Looks like you really are not familiar with the rules of etiquette. Perhaps it would be good to learn about the rules of etiquette before going to the course. Here you can read the USGA and PGA rules on etiquette, basic rules of the course, and examples. 

USGA Rules of Etiquette

* Golfers should always show consideration for other individuals on the course and should not disturb play by moving, talking, or making unnecessary noise, including playing loud music.

* Golfers should ensure that any electronic device taken onto the course does not distract other players.

* On the teeing ground, a golfer should not tee a ball until it is his/her turn to play.

* Players should not stand close to or directly behind the ball or directly behind the hole when a golfer is about to play.

On the Putting Green

* Golfers should not stand on or cast a shadow over another player’s line of putt when he/she is making a stroke.

* Players should remain on or near the putting green until all other players in the group have holed out.

 

https://www.cityofmontrose.org/DocumentCenter/View/29073/Black-Canyon-Golf-Course-Rules-and-Etiquette?bidId=

 

Golf for Beginners: Golf Etiquette, Rules and Glossary

---

What to expect during a round of golf, from beginning to end.

 

I understand what the Rules of Etiquette are.

You claimed that "The etiquette and consideration of other players on the golf course is much worse" and you have been asked by multiple people to provide examples to support your claim because multiple people with extensive experience playing, coaching, and acting as rules officials have indicated their experiences don't match up with what you are claiming. 

How does me asking you for examples to support your claim give you the impression that I don't know the rules of golf etiquette?

[iacas]

1 hour ago, CrashTestDummy said:

Looks like you really are not familiar with the rules of etiquette.

You're making a bad first impression. This isn't how you "internet."

I asked you for examples. Are you going to tell me that I don't know the rules of etiquette?

We're still waiting for you to answer the question.

[CrashTestDummy]

4 hours ago, klineka said:

I understand what the Rules of Etiquette are.

You claimed that "The etiquette and consideration of other players on the golf course is much worse" and you have been asked by multiple people to provide examples to support your claim because multiple people with extensive experience playing, coaching, and acting as rules officials have indicated their experiences don't match up with what you are claiming. 

How does me asking you for examples to support your claim give you the impression that I don't know the rules of golf etiquette?

The examples are not adhering to all those rules of etiquette. Over the years, I have seen all those rules of etiquette being broken. 

I do not need to write all of those things. You know what they are. Are you just trying to troll? 

4 hours ago, iacas said:

You're making a bad first impression. This isn't how you "internet."

I asked you for examples. Are you going to tell me that I don't know the rules of etiquette?

We're still waiting for you to answer the question.

I'm just debating the subject. Saying you don't know examples of the rules etiquette being broken tells me you don't know what the rules of etiquette are. 

 

I don't think this you folks like any debate, discussion, or opinions that don't align with your opinions and take them as a threat. I'm just discussion the debate. Forums are supposed to be for discussion and debate.