Can Somebody Explain to Me Why Lie Angle Balanced Putters Are Important?

[ChetlovesMer]

This video got into my youtube feed. And I watched it. 
But I'm confused why not spinning in "the revealer" is important to making putts. 

Maybe I'm oversimplifying this, but it seems to me, your hands are holding the putter. So, it isn't going to spin when you swing it. The ball isn't that heavy so as to overpower my hands when I don't hit it dead center. If the ball was so heavy as to overpower my hands when I don't hit it dead center, than certainly it would be heavy enough to overpower the lie-angle balance, right? 

Don't get me wrong. I like the demo. It's something they can show people and say "Look our putter is different." But the more I think about it the less I think this feature matters. 

I have an open mind, however. 
Let me know if there's really a benefit to this that I just don't understand. 

 

 

[boogielicious]

I looked at the video for ten seconds and immediately thought of this.
 

I am Vinz Clortho, Minion of Gozer. Buy my putter!

[iacas]

Ralph Maltby | Evolution of putter designs and Zero Torque |

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Discuss, ask and learn about golf and clubmaking from the experts at The GolfWorks

I posted that link elsewhere. Probably in the LAB thread.

[GolfLug]

Quite a few LAB putters in our league and must have hit 50 odd putts with two design variations this summer at the practice green. Also spent 30 minutes at GG messing around with it few weekends ago.

My two cents: It is disingenuous to say zero torque putters are totally placebo. Dynamically balanced lie-angle has some merit. Take a few strokes and you will quickly realize there is zero heel or toe drag  (as advertised) due to the putter head's own MOI. That's not nothing. It seems to reduce rotational hand manipulation (twist torque) to keep face square. YMMV but again, that's not nothing. Of course there is still gear effect due to off-center strikes but they are not claiming to cure that. 

The jury on the forward leaning grip is out but I certainly like the feel. Impact with slightly rising hands seems natural.

I'm not in love with it but then I have never been in love with anything about putting. The funny look is a bit off putting but I'm considering it. 

@ChetlovesMer, we use only a fraction of our power in a putting stroke and when either heel or toe lags dynamically you counter it dynamically with ever so slight more  twist 'power', which adds a degree of variability. 

IMHO nothing beats an actual trial to find out for yourself. 

Edited Friday at 11:18 AM by GolfLug

[ChetlovesMer]

7 hours ago, iacas said:

Ralph Maltby | Evolution of putter designs and Zero Torque |

---

Discuss, ask and learn about golf and clubmaking from the experts at The GolfWorks

I posted that link elsewhere. Probably in the LAB thread.

Hmm... Somehow I missed or forgot about that thread. This is a pretty good read. Interesting indeed.

[iacas]

34 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

My two cents: It is disingenuous to say zero torque putters are totally placebo. Dynamically balanced lie-angle has some merit. Take a few strokes and you will quickly realize there is zero heel or toe drag  (as advertised) due to the putter head's own MOI. That's not nothing. It seems to reduce rotational hand manipulation (twist torque) to keep face square. YMMV but again, that's not nothing. Of course there is still gear effect due to off-center strikes but they are not claiming to cure that.

Eh. The forces and torques in even the most "toe hang" putter is incredibly small. Overcome simply by lifting the club off the ground, which is why the Revealer needs to be so well aligned and smooth.

Plus all that's said in the thread about how the Revealer isn't even possibly genuine.

I'm generally against shitty science.

[ChetlovesMer]

1 hour ago, GolfLug said:

IMHO nothing beats an actual trial to find out for yourself. 

I will be very close to a PGA Superstore today. I'm going to pop in and give them a test drive.

[GolfLug]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

Plus all that's said in the thread about how the Revealer isn't even possibly genuine.

Yeah, can't say anything about the Revealer as no experience. Went by my first hand experience with the putter as posted. 

2 hours ago, iacas said:

Overcome simply by lifting the club off the ground, 

Lift heel like Stricker? If yes, not a fan in general but I get what you are saying.

1 hour ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I will be very close to a PGA Superstore today. I'm going to pop in and give them a test drive.

Very interested in what you find out. I think I'm bit more easily influenced by short term trials but I thought it had merit in that it did what it claims. No more, no less.

Edited Friday at 02:18 PM by GolfLug

[ChetlovesMer]

Okay, as I mentioned I was planning on being near the PGA Superstore and I popped in with the sole purpose of rolling putts with the LAB putter. I walked in. The saleslady said "How can I help you?" I said "I want to putt with the LAB putter." 

I tried two models: The DF2.1 and the DF3.

To me they felt about the same. The DF3 can pick up a ball, so that's cool. And would actually be the reason I'd pick it over the DF2.1. 

I did not like the forward leaning grip thing at all. Not even a little bit.

The saleslady told me that a lot of folks don't like the "press grip". Then she said something interesting. She said words to the affect that the press grip also ruins the "lie Angle Balance" thing. She said kind of what Jim Harrington said. (I'm paraphrasing here) She said that "the revealer" works based on the axis of the shaft, but then they go and install the grip on a different axis, so, it wouldn't actually work if you put the putter in the revealer based on the axis of the grip, or something like that. She went on to say she thinks that's one of the reasons why they started offering grips which keep the same axis as the revealer. So, you can get them without the shaft leaning forward and with a more traditional grip. 

Anyway, if I were to get one, I'd definitely avoid the goofy "press grip". 

I tried a few of them and the one I liked best I'd describe as okay. I'm not really a feel player, but in my opinion, they don't feel good. With your eyes closed it was really difficult to feel how well you hit it. The saleslady suggested when I use it, I should look at the hole for short putts. I tried that and immediately decided that's a terrible idea. This is most definitely a putter where you need to look at the ball when you hit it. 

But does it work? ... I have no idea. I picked up a PING PLD and a Tour Edge Wingman just to compare it. I noticed no difference in my ability to hit my line or control the distance. I spent about 10 to 15 minutes with each putter, rolling balls down a line on the green, trying to sink short and long putts, lagging up to targets etc...  (Granted I performed no scientific tests, just tried to roll a bunch of putts.) I did notice that both the PING and The Tour Edge "felt" way better. The Ping is $400, the Tour Edge is $129. The LAB is $450 to $500 for an off the shelf model and $620 for a custom built model. 

Here's what I learned, if I was going to go in and just get a putter off the shelf, I'd buy the Tour Edge Wingman. Hell, it's $129.00, it felt great off the face and I was able to hit equally as many putts with it as anything else. 

As a last note. I don't like that the custom model is $120 to $170 more. I feel like I'm getting totally screwed on that. I get it, if you were getting something that wasn't built from standard parts. But for that money you are just getting standard parts built to your spec. That feels like a very high adder. Makes me wonder if their plant could use my help in implementing some lean practices and one-piece-flow. 

Anyway, there's my review. Granted no science was used during this review, but overall I give the LAB putters a resounding "eh". 

[iacas]

5 hours ago, GolfLug said:

Yeah, can't say anything about the Revealer as no experience. Went by my first hand experience with the putter as posted. 

We’ve talked about it here extensively. And you have enough of a scientific background to diss out some things.

5 hours ago, GolfLug said:

Lift heel like Stricker? If yes, not a fan in general but I get what you are saying.

No, to make a stroke!

2 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

The saleslady told me that a lot of folks don't like the "press grip". Then she said something interesting. She said words to the affect that the press grip also ruins the "lie Angle Balance" thing. She said kind of what Jim Harrington said. (I'm paraphrasing here) She said that "the revealer" works based on the axis of the shaft, but then they go and install the grip on a different axis, so, it wouldn't actually work if you put the putter in the revealer based on the axis of the grip, or something like that.

Yup.

[boogielicious]

@GolfLug,

You don’t need no stinking lie angle, face-balanced putter. You just need me to bet you will make the putt, preferably in the pouring rain.

[saevel25]

On 12/13/2024 at 6:06 AM, GolfLug said:

My two cents: It is disingenuous to say zero torque putters are totally placebo. Dynamically balanced lie-angle has some merit. Take a few strokes and you will quickly realize there is zero heel or toe drag  (as advertised) due to the putter head's own MOI. That's not nothing. It seems to reduce rotational hand manipulation (twist torque) to keep face square. YMMV but again, that's not nothing. Of course there is still gear effect due to off-center strikes but they are not claiming to cure that. 

Could the face balance or torque balance stuff influence a golfer, sure. It's probably minimal compared to other things. It might be like 1 putt made over 1000 putts or something. 

I think what matters more is weight distribution for distance control, and face configuration with alignment markings for lining up the putt. The rest is mostly just sales pitch stuff to stand out in my opinion. 

 

[Ty_Webb]

2 hours ago, saevel25 said:

face configuration with alignment markings for lining up the putt

 

A putter which is actually aiming where it looks to you like it's aiming is pretty helpful. 

As to LAB, I go back and forth on it - I've used them at PGA Superstore on a few occasions and it does seem to swing very easily and I don't feel like I'm having to manipulate it at all. But I'm not really comfortable springing north of $500 on one without knowing which alignment set up I need and I can't figure out an easy way to test them all. That and I'm putting pretty well with my current putter, so I should at least stick it out with that until it goes cold. The new OZ1 looks decent though. Will have to see.

[ChetlovesMer]

16 hours ago, Ty_Webb said:

But I'm not really comfortable springing north of $500 on one without knowing which alignment set up I need and I can't figure out an easy way to test them all. That and I'm putting pretty well with my current putter, so I should at least stick it out with that until it goes cold. The new OZ1 looks decent though. Will have to see.

For just an extra $150 you can have one custom built for you. 
They actually have a system to fit these. You take a face on video of yourself putting with some kind of vertical line in the background. (Door jam is probably most common.) Then you send them the video and they will use your height plus references from the length of the putter you use. (They tell you how to measure it.) With that and the video they build your putter just to your specifications. Look on their website under the fitting part. There's a "remote fitting" tab. 

BTW - Just to be clear, the remote fitting is actually free. But it's about $150 adder for most of the putters to get one custom built instead of an off-the-shelf model. 

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

They actually have a system to fit these. You take a face on video of yourself putting with some kind of vertical line in the background. (Door jam is probably most common.) Then you send them the video and they will use your height plus references from the length of the putter you use. (They tell you how to measure it.) With that and the video they build your putter just to your specifications. Look on their website under the fitting part. There's a "remote fitting" tab. 

Ah, yes, their super technologically accurate web cam fitting.

Oy.

I dislike liars, so I dislike LAB.

It's a bonus that their science (and fittings) are very nearly junk.

[Ty_Webb]

1 hour ago, ChetlovesMer said:

For just an extra $150 you can have one custom built for you. 
They actually have a system to fit these. You take a face on video of yourself putting with some kind of vertical line in the background. (Door jam is probably most common.) Then you send them the video and they will use your height plus references from the length of the putter you use. (They tell you how to measure it.) With that and the video they build your putter just to your specifications. Look on their website under the fitting part. There's a "remote fitting" tab. 

BTW - Just to be clear, the remote fitting is actually free. But it's about $150 adder for most of the putters to get one custom built instead of an off-the-shelf model. 

Yes I'm aware of that - they're just figuring out what lie angle and length you need. Nothing about the alignment lines.