Been Wondering About This Ruling for Years

[ChetlovesMer]

Okay, so like 5-6 years ago a buddy of mine and I are playing golf in Nevada. Not a tournament, but we're betting 20 bucks a side. I don't think this actually affected the outcome but I'm curious how you all would have ruled this. 

We are playing a hole in which on one side of the concrete cart path is the grass on the other side is rocky, desert. My buddy hits his tee shot which comes to rest on the other side of the cart path under a prickly ugly bush. He's right handed but he turns his 7-iron upside down and addresses the ball left handed, with the club upside-down. Then he says "I get relief because I'm standing on the cart path." 

"Okay" I say.  

Then he drops the ball (from the shoulder as this is pre-2019) on the "good" side of the cart path within 2 club lengths no closer to the hole. 

I believe he should have had to hit from the crappy side of the cart path, by dropping the ball within 2 club lengths no closer to the hole. 

My contention is the nearest point of complete relief is in the desert. His contention is as long as it's within 2 club lengths no closer to the hole he can drop anywhere he wants. Who's right? 

Okay, now the kicker. He declares his ball in play. Now admittedly it is less than 2 club lengths from where it came to rest and isn't any closer to the hole. Then he addresses his ball (7 iron again) right handed this time and declares he gets relief again, because he's standing on the cart path. ... Which he is. 

He drops again, and now he's on the fairway, not even in the rough. 

So, with two drops and no stokes he's moved from under a bush in the desert, to the rough, to the fairway. 

Here's a picture which may help.

 

So he hits his 7 iron on the green. No penalty. I guess he may be right, but it's always felt shady and we've poked fun at each other over this incident for years now. 

What do you all think? 

[iacas]

Your NPR (nearest point of relief) is where it would be to play that shot. Looks like that's on the bush-side of the cart path. You're then free to re-assess and take further relief if you want. Or an unplayable, etc.

Looks like he should have dropped in the bush, or maybe slightly behind it if that is within the relief area.

Oh, and you have to take complete relief.

[Rulesman]

  On 1/4/2025 at 7:39 PM, ChetlovesMer said:

He's right handed but he turns his 7-iron upside down and addresses the ball left handed, with the club upside-down. Then he says "I get relief because I'm standing on the cart path." 

 

 

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No Relief When Clearly Unreasonable to Play Ball. There is no relief under Rule 16.1:

• When playing the ball as it lies would be clearly unreasonable because of something from which the player is not allowed to take free relief (such as when a player is unable to make a stroke because of where the ball lies in a bush), or 

• When interference exists only because a player chooses a club, type of stance or swing or direction of play that is clearly unreasonable under the circumstances.

Either/both of the above would seem to apply

[ChetlovesMer]

  On 1/4/2025 at 11:30 PM, iacas said:

Oh, and you have to take complete relief.

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This was my contention.

  On 1/5/2025 at 8:44 AM, Rulesman said:

• When interference exists only because a player chooses a club, type of stance or swing or direction of play that is clearly unreasonable under the circumstances.

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This of course has come up over the years of debate. His contention is that it was reasonable under the circumstances. 

[mdl]

I agree that if a lefty swing was reasonable, then that part of the situation is fine. As in, if the ball were pretty close to the bush so that a right handed swing was blocked but far enough away that he had a clear strike at the ball left handed, then I think that's a fair thing to do. But then, as Erik said, assuming that the cart path in question is wide enough to accommodate driving a standard golf cart on it, then NPR is certainly on the desert side of the path. Anyone know what the penalty is for taking an illegal drop in this way (not at the NPR)?

One question I have, @iacas said the NPR was probably in the bush. Do you not have to be able to take a reasonable shot from a spot for it to count as a relief point? Assuming the NPR is in the bush, would he be allowed to determine NPR given the lefty swing but then actually drop the ball behind and towards the cart path from the NPR to give himself a right handed shot that wasn't blocked by the bush? Here he would be determining NPR given the proposed lefty shot, but then taking the actual drop in a place where he wouldn't get full relief for the lefty shot. Is that legal.

To be more extreme, what if the OB line were 18 inches into the desert from this cart path. If you take relief for a lefty swing, is the NPR OB, since your feet fit in bounds on the desert side of the cart path? Or does OB not count as a relief point so there you'd get to drop on the grass side of the path. Assuming that's true, is it then legal to do what the OP's friend did, which is drop in the grass to get relief from a lefty swing, then set up for a righty swing and take relief again into the fairway?

[DaveP043]

  On 1/5/2025 at 11:51 PM, mdl said:

Do you not have to be able to take a reasonable shot from a spot for it to count as a relief point?

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Simply put, no, you get relief from the cart path, but there's no guarantee of a reasonable swing, no relief from tall grass or trees or anything else.  To answer a later question, if a stance to that left side of the path, and a left handed swing, means the ball is OB, or in another area of the course like a Bunker or Penalty Area, that's not the Nearest Point of Complete Relief.

[DaveP043]

  On 1/6/2025 at 1:23 AM, DaveP043 said:

Simply put, no, you get relief from the cart path, but there's no guarantee of a reasonable swing, no relief from tall grass or trees or anything else.  To answer a later question, if a stance to that left side of the path, and a left handed swing, means the ball is OB, or in another area of the course like a Bunker or Penalty Area, that's not the Nearest Point of Complete Relief.

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I'm quoting myself, only because I want to link up to the relevant information from the Rules.  These are the current rules, but I don't think the 2016 version differed very much.  First is Rule 16.1, for relief form Abnormal Course Conditions.  A cart path is an Immoveable Obstruction, one of the four ACCs.   Others have quoted the provision that you can't take relief for an unreasonable stance or type of swing, it sounds like relief was appropriate in this case.  The Reference Point is the Nearest Point of Complete Relief, and a diagram is provided.  So we refer to the Definition of the Nearest Point of Complete Relief.  The NPCR allows relief from the cart path, for the type of swing the Player would have made if the cart path had not been there.  Specifically, the Definition says:

"The nearest point of complete relief relates solely to the particular condition from which relief is being taken and may be in a location where there is interference by something else"

So there might be interference from a tree or bush, a clear swing isn't guaranteed.  I'll go back to Clarification 16.1/1, which says that Relief from an ACC might result in better conditions, or worse conditions.  However, the NPCR for a ball in the General Area MUST be in the General Area (Rule 16.1b), its not in a Bunker of a Penalty Area.  That's not to say you might not have to stand in a Bunker or Penalty Area, just that the Ball won't be in it.

You can find all of these on the Rules of Golf app on your phone, or on the USGA's webpage:

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#section=rules&itemNum=19&subItemNum=1

[ChetlovesMer]

  On 1/6/2025 at 3:01 PM, DaveP043 said:

You can find all of these on the Rules of Golf app on your phone, or on the USGA's webpage:

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#section=rules&itemNum=19&subItemNum=1

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It's so funny. We actually looked it up years ago and that only lead to more debate. Each of us convinced we were correct. 

[DaveP043]

  On 1/6/2025 at 7:31 PM, ChetlovesMer said:

It's so funny. We actually looked it up years ago and that only lead to more debate. Each of us convinced we were correct. 

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Presumably you had a rule book with you, I don't remember a phone app being available back then.  Clearly someone was wrong.

  On 1/4/2025 at 7:39 PM, ChetlovesMer said:

My contention is the nearest point of complete relief is in the desert. His contention is as long as it's within 2 club lengths no closer to the hole he can drop anywhere he wants. Who's right? 

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Here's what the 2016-2018 rules said, per www.ruleshistory.com

 

  Quote

a player may take relief from interference by an immovable obstruction as follows:
(i) Through the Green: If the ball lies through the green, the player must lift the ball and drop it, without penalty, within one club-length of and not nearer the hole than the nearest point of relief. The nearest point of relief must not be in a hazard or on a putting green. 

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Clearly he was wrong, and it seems tat you were right, if he wanted FREE relief from the path.  He certainly COULD take Unplayable Ball relief, for 1 Penalty Stroke, and drop within 2 clublengths, which apparently is what he did.   

 

  On 1/4/2025 at 7:39 PM, ChetlovesMer said:

Okay, now the kicker. He declares his ball in play. Now admittedly it is less than 2 club lengths from where it came to rest and isn't any closer to the hole. Then he addresses his ball (7 iron again) right handed this time and declares he gets relief again, because he's standing on the cart path. ... Which he is. 

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At this point, he has a new situation, and he certainly CAN take free relief from the cart path in this situation, and that relief certainly could put him in the fairway.  

[ChetlovesMer]

  On 1/6/2025 at 7:44 PM, DaveP043 said:

Presumably you had a rule book with you, I don't remember a phone app being available back then.  Clearly someone was wrong.

Here's what the 2016-2018 rules said, per www.ruleshistory.com

 

Clearly he was wrong, and it seems tat you were right, if he wanted FREE relief from the path.  He certainly COULD take Unplayable Ball relief, for 1 Penalty Stroke, and drop within 2 clublengths, which apparently is what he did.   

 

At this point, he has a new situation, and he certainly CAN take free relief from the cart path in this situation, and that relief certainly could put him in the fairway.  

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I can't wait to tell him that @DaveP043 is on my side! 👍🤣👍

[DaveP043]

  On 1/6/2025 at 7:59 PM, ChetlovesMer said:

I can't wait to tell him that @DaveP043 is on my side! 👍🤣👍

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If it helps, tell him a USGA Expert rules official is on your side.  More important, ask HIM to find a rule that mentions 2 clublengths and FREE relief in the same rule.  He won't find it.  The bit I quoted makes it pretty clear to me.

[Rulesman]

The OP says "under a prickly ugly bush"

Not being there and in the absence of a clear photo of the situation, I am not entirely convinced about the reasonableness of the claim.

However, DavePo43 is of course correct in all other aspects.

 

[mdl]

  On 1/6/2025 at 8:18 PM, DaveP043 said:

If it helps, tell him a USGA Expert rules official is on your side.  More important, ask HIM to find a rule that mentions 2 clublengths and FREE relief in the same rule.  He won't find it.  The bit I quoted makes it pretty clear to me.

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This is one of the handiest rules of thumb to remember. If relief is free, it's one club length. If it's with penalty, it's two club lengths (or on the line away from the flag when that's allowed).

On the OB question, suppose your ball is on the cart path and your reasonable swing setup is right handed and you "have" to take relief (says it's a mini cobblestone path and the ball is sitting down and you're guaranteed to blade it and not really know where it's going, and probably damage your club). Your NPR is left of the path, as it almost always is for a righty. But while the ball can be in bounds, your feet will be across the OB line between the hole and the houses lining the fairway. Is that still an NPR? Are you allowed to take a right handed swing with your feet OB? What if the OB is a cliff or other landscape feature that means you can't stand there? Does a point on the left hand side of the path still count as NPR?

[DaveP043]

  On 1/6/2025 at 11:23 PM, mdl said:

 

On the OB question, suppose your ball is on the cart path and your reasonable swing setup is right handed and you "have" to take relief (says it's a mini cobblestone path and the ball is sitting down and you're guaranteed to blade it and not really know where it's going, and probably damage your club). Your NPR is left of the path, as it almost always is for a righty. But while the ball can be in bounds, your feet will be across the OB line between the hole and the houses lining the fairway. Is that still an NPR? Are you allowed to take a right handed swing with your feet OB? What if the OB is a cliff or other landscape feature that means you can't stand there? Does a point on the left hand side of the path still count as NPR?

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Yes, thats still your NPCR.  Your stance might be OB, which is legal, it might be down the cliff, or in water in a Penalty Area, those factors don't disqualify that from being the NPCR. However, once you make that drop, you have a new situation, one for which a left-hand stroke might be reasonable.  As you describe it, if you went further left of the path the ball might be OB if you got your feet off the path in taking a left-handed swing.  If all that is true, your NPCR for a left-hand swing could be on the right side of the path.  Its important to consider a probable sequence of relief situations before you decide to lift the ball to take relief the first time.

[boogielicious]

  On 1/6/2025 at 10:36 PM, Rulesman said:

The OP says "under a prickly ugly bush"

Not being there and in the absence of a clear photo of the situation, I am not entirely convinced about the reasonableness of the claim.

However, DavePo43 is of course correct in all other aspects.

 

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I don’t think the OP wanted to body shame the bush. Bushes have feeling to ya know!

[Rulesman]

  On 1/7/2025 at 12:20 PM, boogielicious said:

I don’t think the OP wanted to body shame the bush. Bushes have feeling to ya know!

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Yes. They always seem to point their spikes at me when I am attempting to prune them 

[ChetlovesMer]

  On 1/7/2025 at 12:20 PM, boogielicious said:

I don’t think the OP wanted to body shame the bush. Bushes have feeling to ya know!

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BTW - The bush was ugly. 

Anyway, in an attempt to add some clarity the ball was under some of the branches of the bush. But the bush was shaped in such a way where a left handed player could have played the shot without hitting any of the branches. A right handed player would have no chance. Thus my buddy/opponent I think was "reasonable" in addressing the ball with a flipped over 7 iron as he could have hit it lefty. .... There was, however, no guarantee that he would get good results as I've actually never seen him try to hit a ball in that manor in all the years I've played with him.

[DaveP043]

  On 1/7/2025 at 3:10 PM, Rulesman said:

Yes. They always seem to point their spikes at me when I am attempting to prune them 

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Sounds like you're trying to prune gorse.  Seems as if gorse can actually throw its needles at anyone nearby!