Master "Forged vs. Cast" or "Blade vs. Game-Improvement" Iron Thread

[wachesawgolfer]

True enough.

Many people dispute that statement. There in no question cast steel is harder than forged. How much harder, a lot. High quality cast clubs show little or no bag chatter after years of use, yet forged steel of 1020 carbon, soft, shows dings all over from one round. 1020 can lose its lie angle after a few shots on a mat, cast will never lose its lie angle. Forged can be bent as much as 6 degrees, cast cannot, in fact Pings are pre-bent they are of such high quality and hardness. The grooves on a cast club last almost forever, on a forged club as a wedge you could wear them down in a few months of regular play. To say no one can feel that difference in hardness in a perfectly struck ball on either club is a little unrealistic with a blade design. The key is a perfectly struck ball with almost 100 percent energy transfer, which believe or not many good players do a lot of the time. There are countless old forged sets around where there is a quarter/dime size worn spot right in the sweet spot, but otherwise the face looks new. Mishits tell us nothing other than they are mishit, no comparison there. Bottom line, cast clubs are less expensive to make, allow more elaborate cavity back designs, are much more durable and are the far better choice for most golfers, period. Wishon is a component head maker and his margins are most likely better on casted heads, so he has all the reason to say there is no difference in feel.

[mustangbryk]

Depends on the weather for me. In the late fall and early spring i didn't care for my ald forge blades. WOW did you get some stingers. With my cast clubs i rarly get the feeling.

[The Wilderness]

I am a materials scientist/metallurgist and I just wanted to throw in my $.02. When a metal is cast it is poured in liquid form into a metal or sand mold and allowed to cool (cooling times can vary to obtain different phases of the material for different applications) If the liquid metal is allowed to cool at a slower rate it will give the atoms in time to form into large equiaxed (similar size and shape) grains. Forging involves beating a piece of metal that has been heated to a softening temperature so it is easier to form into a desired shape. When a metal is rolled, bent, or smashed it becomes cold worked and harder with grains that are much smaller in size and usually elongated in the rolling/forging direction. Since the yield strength and thus hardness of a material is inversely proportional to the grain size, two identical metals would be softer if cast and cooled slowly than a forged/cold worked sample. Also when discussing changing the lofts of a club and the worry about fracture: a general rule of thumb is the smaller the grains in the material the higher the fatigue life. That should never be an issue unless you were to change the loft of your clubs by many degrees hundreds of times. The type of steel also plays a big part in how the club feels/performs but this post has gone on long enough. Man, am I a nerd or what?

[allin]

I feel it used to be much easier. The newer cast clubs with elastomer backs and vibration bars etc, I can't really tell the difference. I remember someone posted that the type of shaft connection used is a factor also. Parallel Vs. Taper tip? I wonder if the top and bottom edge width affects feel also, wide is much more common in cast clubs. When I tested Callaway Xs in both forged and cast versions I could barely tell any difference, mostly on poorly struck shots.

[fusioncal]

Many people dispute that statement. There in no question cast steel is harder than forged. How much harder, a lot. High quality cast clubs show little or no bag chatter after years of use, yet forged steel of 1020 carbon, soft, shows dings all over from one round. 1020 can lose its lie angle after a few shots on a mat, cast will never lose its lie angle. Forged can be bent as much as 6 degrees, cast cannot, in fact Pings are pre-bent they are of such high quality and hardness. The grooves on a cast club last almost forever, on a forged club as a wedge you could wear them down in a few months of regular play. To say no one can feel that difference in hardness in a perfectly struck ball on either club is a little unrealistic with a blade design. The key is a perfectly struck ball with almost 100 percent energy transfer, which believe or not many good players do a lot of the time. There are countless old forged sets around where there is a quarter/dime size worn spot right in the sweet spot, but otherwise the face looks new. Mishits tell us nothing other than they are mishit, no comparison there.

I've read numerous posts between cast and forged, each justifying their reasons against another. Frankly I don't really care what they say, but I do know for myself that forged clubs feel softer. That's why there's different market for cast clubs and forged clubs. I am personally fond of forging method and I will continue to use irons/clubs made that way.

There's another theory that I've come up with as to why some people say both of them feel the same and some who say otherwise. Since "feel" is subjective and has to do with senses, one has to know that everyone may not have the same sensitivity. For instance, I can stand spicier food and feel totally comfortable (insensitive) up to a certain level, but others probably can't even stand from just a drop of hot sauce (sensitive). The same goes for the "feel" in hitting golf clubs. Highly sensitive golfer may acknowledge the slight differences in feel and some probably don't. I've heard the story about someone screwing up Tiger Wood's range balls (Tiger has totally different balls than retail ones) by placing one different (retail) ball into the bucket. After hitting that specific ball, he then asks, "Okay, who messed up with the balls?"

I am a materials scientist/metallurgist and I just wanted to throw in my $.02. When a metal is cast it is poured in liquid form into a metal or sand mold and allowed to cool (cooling times can vary to obtain different phases of the material for different applications) If the liquid metal is allowed to cool at a slower rate it will give the atoms in time to form into large equiaxed (similar size and shape) grains. Forging involves beating a piece of metal that has been heated to a softening temperature so it is easier to form into a desired shape. When a metal is rolled, bent, or smashed it becomes cold worked and harder with grains that are much smaller in size and usually elongated in the rolling/forging direction. Since the yield strength and thus hardness of a material is inversely proportional to the grain size, two identical metals would be softer if cast and cooled slowly than a forged/cold worked sample. Also when discussing changing the lofts of a club and the worry about fracture: a general rule of thumb is the smaller the grains in the material the higher the fatigue life. That should never be an issue unless you were to change the loft of your clubs by many degrees hundreds of times. The type of steel also plays a big part in how the club feels/performs but this post has gone on long enough. Man, am I a nerd or what?

Since you're metallurgist scientist, I have a question for you that I got from another forum. Is it true that you can't cast carbon steel for golf clubs? I know you literally can, but the reject rates for golf clubs being inconsistent is way too high.

The guy on another forum knows this from forging factory in China and he also mention that is why you don't see cast clubs made from 1020 or 1025 carbon steel. What say you?

[Ziophils]

I am personally fond of forging method and I will continue to use irons/clubs made that way.

I may be wrong, but arn't Vokey wedges cast?

[i-Guy]

I wouldn't go that far but I would say anyone over about a 2 or 3 handicap is doing a disservice to themselves by playing blades. First, higher handicappers don't hit the center of the clubface consistantly enough the be using blades. They need the forgiveness of a cavity back. Second, higher handicaps can't work the ball well enough to take advantage of a blade. Some will disagree with me on this, but every pro I work with will tell you the same thing. You have a good enough handicap, go pick out a good players cavity back iron. You will benefit from the forgiveness, and will give up very little in feel.

This was very well put...I play

MP 60 for this reason. Being a 12-14 handicapper I suffer from not hitting the center of the club face all the time and my MP's give me a little forgiveness for that...however, they are close enough to blades that they give me great feedback when I miss, so I can work on improving...best of both worlds in my opinion...

[AnalogAG]

I play the MP-32s for 3 1/2 month now.
Fact is that during this time my scoring did not suffer. I had a round where I played 12 strokes better than my adjusted handicap(was CR 74.3 and 145 Slope)!
Also I can say that they really give me hard time from time to time!

Right now I have some lessons to improve my game and hopefully therefore it is good to play blades, to learn it right.

[fusioncal]

I may be wrong, but arn't Vokey wedges cast?

Yes, Vokey wedges are cast.

[wachesawgolfer]

First, higher handicappers don't hit the center of the clubface consistantly enough the be using blades. They need the forgiveness of a cavity back.

Are you talking real high handicappers. Blades always get a bad rap, it seems to me. Get some with a properly weighted and flexed shafts and they are no harder to hit than cavity backs. Problem seems to me, the blades you see on the rack are heavy and very stiff. These shafts only work for strong, highly skilled players who can swing the heavy shafts at great angles. I play blades with Nippon Steel 950, (95 grams) in a stiff, which is very soft to flex in this model, and they are a piece of cake to hit. I admit I practice, but I see no improvement at all with cavity backs sets, I have in the garage.

[The Wilderness]

Since you're metallurgist scientist, I have a question for you that I got from another forum. Is it true that you can't cast carbon steel for golf clubs? I know you literally can, but the reject rates for golf clubs being inconsistent is way too high.

Casting anything is not a very good technique for forming metals that will impact things or are under some load. Cast materials can be very very porous which can lead to failure of the sample unless other processes are used. As for why low carbon steels are not cast for golf clubs: most forged clubs are very thin in many parts, at least when compared to cast cavity backed sticks. when you cast a metal and there is not much liquid in the mold it cools and solidifys rapidly. this causes impurities in the melt (sulpher, phosphorous, small amounts of chromium, nickle, and other things found in steel) to segregate out and make 2nd phase particles that put tremendous stresses on the regular crystal lattice. This in turn causes the sample to crack much of the time in order for the structure to relieve the stresses.

Casting does work to make golf clubs (my ping i5's are cast) but for thinner blade like irons forging gives more control over the orientation of the grains and less to worry about when it comes to porosity and second phase particles. I hope that helps.

[wachesawgolfer]

Casting anything is not a very good technique for forming metals that will impact things or are under some load. Cast materials can be very very porous which can lead to failure of the sample unless other processes are used. As for why low carbon steels are not cast for golf clubs: most forged clubs are very thin in many parts, at least when compared to cast cavity backed sticks. when you cast a metal and there is not much liquid in the mold it cools and solidifys rapidly. this causes impurities in the melt (sulpher, phosphorous, small amounts of chromium, nickle, and other things found in steel) to segregate out and make 2nd phase particles that put tremendous stresses on the regular crystal lattice. This in turn causes the sample to crack much of the time in order for the structure to relieve the stresses.

This is exactly what Miura states in its tests. Their forged heads have much finer and compact sand like particles where as other less quality forgings and cast heads have bigger irregular particles and air pockets as seen under an electron microscope. The feel comes from the partcle size and compactness.

[SirMilton]

I'm not a metallurgist, but I managed a large metal working corporation that produced cast and forged items, including CNC milled items, and I know the machinery and problems in making complex shapes simply by forging. I remain extremely skeptical that what some brands call "forged" is really what forged is supposed to mean.

However, the bottom line for me is I always choose what feels best and works best for me; I really don't care what works or feels best for anyone else, except as a starting point for my personal testing. If plastic clubs made in China worked best, I would use them.

I played forged blades and stiff steel shafts for almost 20 years and was a scratch golfer for most of that period. After recently concluding several months of testing numerous cast and forged clubs, I now have maximum-forgiveness cast, component irons with graphite shafts and hit them better than I ever hit blades with steel shafts.

However, there's probably some old codger out there that still swears by persimmon headed woods with hickory shafts and leather balls stuffed with chicken feathers. By the way, I hit some old wound balls recently and they were sweet!

[TourSpoon]

titleist 735

Yep...Check out my sig. I played these the first time on Saturday and really enjoyed the blades in the 8-9-pw. The 5-6-7 is a moderate cavity back while the 3-4 are full cavities. The forged response was good, I could tell exactly on the club face where I hit the ball. They were suprisingly more forgiving than I thought they would be on the mishits. I had been looking at this set for a while and wanted to have blades, but not throughout the whole set. I will get back to you guys after a few more rounds.

[scottd1022]

I play the Taylormade TP Blades, and i like them.

[Oliver C. Porkman III]

Are you talking real high handicappers. Blades always get a bad rap, it seems to me. Get some with a properly weighted and flexed shafts and they are no harder to hit than cavity backs. Problem seems to me, the blades you see on the rack are heavy and very stiff. These shafts only work for strong, highly skilled players who can swing the heavy shafts at great angles. I play blades with Nippon Steel 950, (95 grams) in a stiff, which is very soft to flex in this model, and they are a piece of cake to hit. I admit I practice, but I see no improvement at all with cavity backs sets, I have in the garage.

I agree I decided to give the blades a try(Titlelist 690 mb's) and was very surprised how easy they were to hit. I liked them so much I have bought two more sets. One for my vacation getaway and one which I keep hidden in my pickup truck for practise when ever I drive by a driving range. I have a theory on this subject. Basically your average golfer who gets out 2 or 3 times a month needs a mental crutch and is more than willing to accept the "cavity back koolaid" solution. If that works for them great but if you start to take the game seriously then don't be afraid of trying the blades.

[ISDriver]

I play the MP-67's as well and truly love the look and feel, but also have GIR issues sometimes. I have been looking into reshafting (from DG S300 to Project X). Whatever you do, get fitted and try as many demos as you can get your hands on. Good luck and hit 'em well.

[PGHDC5]

i just made the switch to musclebacks, and i love em.