Am I in the wrong here?

[CPHoya]

I worked at a course near here and I think R3J is right; this dude just wanted to go home. The other option is he wanted you to leave so he could lock up and play his way around to pick up the flags . You didn't deserve this and that shop is running a weak, weak operation.

Think of it this way: sometimes you can get out on the course completely alone, with no one around, and when that happens I'm likely to hit at least 3 or 4 balls off every tee and to play them out. Since there's no one behind me to catch me, it can't possibly matter, right? What's different about me taking a long time and a group of new players taking a long time when there's no one around?

It's a really hard sell to claim that "learning on the course" is bad. Where are you supposed to learn? After a few weeks on the range you can make contact, maybe after a month it's more reliable, but you still suck. At some point you've gotta play.

Who among us hasn't shot 130 and lost like 10 balls? Seriously.

The queuing theory post is interesting, but it only applies when there's a sufficient closeness between playing groups. It sounds like there were no other groups, and even if there were there was probably a buffer that would solve the backup problem. It's extremely unlikely that three groups were going to show up and stack the 1st tee 3 deep.

You didn't do anything wrong.

[cvlngineer]

You weren't in the wrong. That guy was just a jerk. Kudos to you for helping teach your buddy the game, wherever you did it and whatever handicap you or he has.

[Big Padrigo]

this just strikes me as out of order. I basically learned to play as a kid with my dad on the course during the summer holidays. It would be quiet and I would have time to learn how to play golf as opposed to learning how to swing on the range - big difference!! When people caught up we sped up, or let them through. Part of what I learned is that you have a responsibility to keep out of other people's way and today I am the person in the group who keeps things moving. I don't see how these two things are incompatible. I hope it doesn't put your friends off.

[sacm3bill]

Think of it this way: sometimes you can get out on the course completely alone, with no one around, and when that happens I'm likely to hit at least 3 or 4 balls off every tee and to play them out. Since there's no one behind me to catch me, it can't possibly matter, right? What's different about me taking a long time and a group of new players taking a long time when there's no one around?

It's not as bad when you're solo because no one is likely to catch you, even if you're playing multiple balls. It's much more likely you'll catch a group in front of you first. If you

are caught, it probably isn't going to be by a foursome, so they would just absorb you as opposed to having to play through. (Although note that even that will increase the time of their round because now there's one more in their group.) And note that, as I admitted previously, the above does not apply if you just pick up the pace when a group catches you (as opposed to waving them through). It's the playing through that causes the delays.

It's a really hard sell to claim that "learning on the course" is bad. Where are you supposed to learn? After a few weeks on the range you can make contact, maybe after a month it's more reliable, but you still suck. At some point you've gotta play.

Certainly. No one is arguing that, or saying you need to hit the ball perfectly on the range before going to the course. What I'm arguing against is people who jump right on the course with little or no range time first.

The queuing theory post is interesting, but it only applies when there's a sufficient closeness between playing groups.

Yes, but the point I'm trying to make is: No matter how big the gap originally is between you and the first group behind you, the slower you play the more quickly that gap closes. I.e., the slower you play, the quicker that group is going to catch you, and the longer you are going to make their round.

I figured my post would be controversial. If you have read it with an open mind and simply don't agree with me, that's fine. I just wanted to point out some things that some folks might not have considered. - Bill

[TigerCurtis333]

Ok several people asked me questions and I didn't expect this kind of response, so I'll do the best I can.

First off, I think a lot of people took the wrong idea - I wasn't 100% teaching him. I had taught him several times at the range, but I was kinda of being his mentor, watching all his swings, telling him what he's doing wrong, or what to look for in his swing, stuff like that. It was his first time out so I offered critique at every opportunity I could. I wasn't "teaching" him any major things on the course, but was seriously helping him, if that makes sense. Being out on the actual course is a whole different animal, so I wanted him to get used to it - and, we weren't playing extra holes or balls like we could have. So for example he was in the sand and needed a different type of shot than normal (he got into a lot of odd situations), so I showed him to open his stance a little, as well as some others. We were taking maybe a couple of minutes more on each hole, it wasn't like 40 minutes per hole...so keep that in mind.

1. Sacm: No one else ever came. On the 3rd and 6th tees, you can see three holes behind you. So I knew no one else was on the course the entire half-round.
2. 2 Nassau: I'm a sports journalist. I may not be good at golf (in fact....I'm not!) but I do know about the game. Plus, he's the same age as I am and I knew what growing pains he'd go through, and I was able to teach him pretty quickly. It was night and day after just a couple of holes for him, his drives and irons improved very quickly simply because of two things I told him to try. I know most people think you have to be a great golfer to teach, but you just have to know the game you love.
3. To the couple of people who mentioned he just wanted to leave - that's a possibility but I doubt it - we started at 1:30.

Thanks everyone, that's what I thought. I'm also teaching the newbie's little brother, and all 4 of us were planning on starting to golf much more consistently. I was hoping to do all my golfing at this golf course as it had a course, range and clubhouse all right there. But they just lost four counts of business. There are four other golfcourses in this area, two of which are within walking distance of this one.

[joshtpa]

Do keep in mind though, that a couple of minutes per hole is a pretty long time. I am pretty patient on the course, but if I was waiting behind someone that is showing someone else how to hit out of sand, I would be a little bit upset and anxious. However it is your right. I dont know, maybe its me, but I just think although that some act wrong, you were legitemately off pace according to your own thoughts, and you were a 2some.

[NM Golf]

From working a a golf course and seeing this on a daily basis I will give you some rules for playing golf at the correct pace.

1. Keep up with the group in front of you.
If you have a group in front of you, you should be right behind them the entire round. When they hit their second shots you should be on the teebox ready to hit your tee shots. When they clear the green you should be ready to hit your approach shots. Nothing is worse than a group that cannot keep up the correct pace.

2. If there is a fast group behind you and noone in front of you, let them play through.
Its no fun to get pushed or to play behind a slow group. Let faster players play through. This is only true though if you have open space in front of you.

3. 4 hours and 15 minutes is plenty of time to play most golf courses.

As far as teaching your friend, the course is not the place to give lessons. Quick tips as you are walking or riding to your next shot are okay but the range is the ONLY place where lessons belong.

[b-squared]

From working a a golf course and seeing this on a daily basis I will give you some rules for playing golf at the correct pace.

Yeah. One of the best responses I've seen on this thread, given my experience of working on a course as well...

There should be no teaching, or lessons given on the course as it can slow down play. As for tips, those can be done while moving towards the next shot as previously mentioned.

[golf_junkie27]

You said you were taking about 17 minutes per hole? That is almost a six hour round. Even for a muni, that's really slow.

That said, if there were no other players around, who cares? This only becomes an issue when it's crowded.

[Kltdefer]

I don't think you did anything wrong. It's good to learn about pace of play along with stroking the ball. Timing someone when no one is on the course is stupid. I have to disagree with a few posters about lessons on the course. The course is where folks learn to manage their game (good, bad and the ugly) and everyone has a first time out on the course.

[dave s]

Well written and well explained story.

It sounds to me as the 'older guys' were more yanking your chain more than anything. Trying to 'get your goat...' whatever you want to call it.

You didn't say that they levied any sanctions on you guys or asked you to leave the course--just gave you the parent-child finger wagging drill.

One thing I would caution is teaching on the course. You are to be applauded for keeping a good eye behind your group, letting others play through and trying to keep things moving. You've obiously been taught well and have respect for the game. Thank you.

Idea: Maybe take your newbie buddy to the range for club work and to the practice greens for chipping and putting the rest of the season. Maybe next season he'll be better on the course. And you can play your game!

I'm not on you at all. You sound like you did everything by the book and played the entire round with courtesy to all. I truly believe the other guys were just giving you the business!

dave

[b-squared]

I don't think you did anything wrong. It's good to learn about pace of play along with stroking the ball. Timing someone when no one is on the course is stupid. I have to disagree with a few posters about lessons on the course. The course is where folks learn to manage their game (good, bad and the ugly) and everyone has a first time out on the course.

What do you mean by manage? They can "manage" their course management on the course, not their shots. The driving range is where people are supposed to give lessons, and where people should practice, that's what it's for. The course is for playing, not for practicing or giving lessons.

[joshtpa]

What do you mean by manage? They can "manage" their course management on the course, not their shots. The driving range is where people are supposed to give lessons, and where people should practice, that's what it's for. The course is for playing, not for practicing or giving lessons.

Agreed! Well said.

[TigerCurtis333]

What do you mean by manage? They can "manage" their course management on the course, not their shots. The driving range is where people are supposed to give lessons, and where people should practice, that's what it's for. The course is for playing, not for practicing or giving lessons.

Maybe, but we weren't slowing other groups down, hitting multiple balls or playing any holes twice.

Well written and well explained story.

Thank you. You're idea was a thought of mine, but I doubt he has the patience to wait that long. I kind of introduced him to the idea of starting to golf, so I gotta get him deep into the game before he wonders off and does what I did the last two years, which is play for a while and then stop for two months - bad idea.

[bigphil]

Having worked at a couple of shops while in school, i can understand that if the guy timing you was trying to get off work and he had to wait until everyone was off the course, he might be irritated. he still had no right treating you and your friends like dirt. had it been me, i would have first asked him what the rush is and see if he is waiting to get off work. if he didnt have a good answer for it, i would have ripped him a new @sshole with my 9-iron!

[iacas]

A bit off-topic, but something others have hinted at: do your friend a favor and have him get lessons. If you're a 22, you likely have little business watching your friend's swing unless he's having you look at something specifically.

And in general, regardless of handicap, the course is not the place to "teach" anything, even if it's just a little tweak to someone's grip or something. Sometimes if it's slow we'll kind of goof around with some short game shots on the tee of the next hole if we're waiting, but that's about it, and that's more "experimentation" than actual teaching.

Anyway, what the guy was doing sounds bad, but he didn't actually come up and tell you what the times were, right? Maybe he was having a bet with his friend or something. Still pretty "jerky" but not off the scale.

[Big_M]

I like this idea; I have a friend that just took up the game. I figure the best way to get him going, once he can make decent contact most of the time at the range, is to play a few courses with the 2 of us playing best ball. That should let him play without much pressure and still get a good feel of how to play on a real course. Right now, I don't think he would come to a real course and play even if I tried to drag him.

Yeah... that's what I did with my wife. She took a series of 4 one hour private lessons... then I went to the range with her for another few weeks, maybe a month. I explained all the etiquette and such before actually going out, then at first I took her out on weekdays when possible and late afternoons on weekends. Even then I didn't have her struggle all the way up each hole... if she did there's no way we could have played 18. She just hit a few here and there, chipped and putted and most importantly had fun. Now she loves playing with other couples, enjoys the game, and is very good with ettiquette, pace of play, and such.

Now I am going through a similar process with my brother-in-law... I think it is very important to introduce people to the game in a way that is fairly pressure free and allows them to learn and have fun... spending six straight months on the range just seems a bit excessive to me, unless of course that's what they want to do.

[chipper2]

You are not wrong. I had a run in with a marshall on a $100/round course. He told my friend and myself we were 47 minutes since we tee off and we were only on the green of hole number 3. I told the jackass to check with his starter as we were 19 minutes late in teeing off. We never saw him again. On our return I asked for the General Manager and explained what happened. I also told him it ruined a very nice day on a beautiful course. He asked for our names and addresses. About a week later he sent both of us a letter saying he had checked into the event. It seems the marshall was wrong and would we each accept a voucher for a free round of golf for 4 players. This left a very good feeling toward the course. I have played there several times since with no problems. I think sometimes minimum wage employee likes to show off their authority.