Lag

[wrx_junki]

Righty to Lefty nailed it.

I'm sure there's some drill or techniques to hold lag. It's all in muscle memory and I don't think its impossible to train it to do it better.

[microcrayfish]

Maybe you should just ask a teaching pro? If there's a drill that can increase lag then they'll tell you about it and if there's not like other people are saying then you can at least believe the pro.

[Righty to Lefty]

I'd have to disagree that lag will increase as swing becomes more powerful. If I can swing faster but still keep on semi casting the club then it won't benefit me as much.

As your swing becomes more powerful there will naturally be more down force put on your wrists and that will likely help you hold that lever angle longer into your downswing (Like a whip cracking, if you don't apply much force it doesn't really make much noise, but if you really generate some speed it will realease all of that energy stored at the last possible moment which is lag my friend.) You can't maintain your lag because either you aren't producing enough hip and leg drive (which will natually create the angles as you transition from your backswing to your downswing) or your wrists simply aren't flexible enough. If a pro walked by and you told him that you were working on your lag today he may be professional on the outside but on the inside he or she would be saying " are you serious." That is because it isn't something that you can work on and improve by focusing on it while you are practicing like you can alignment for example. I guess I just don't understand why you are so fixated on this aspect of the swing because you are not going to hit the ball any further because you are not supplying anymore speed. Yes you are attempting to store the energy that you are supplying longer before it is released but you are making your swing become mechanical which is counterproductive. If you want to create and maintain lag more efficiently adopt a fitness plan and focus on making your golf specific muscles stronger and faster and then you will have "insta-lag" in about 2 months! I think I'm gonna start marketing "insta-lag" and selling it in pill form! Just a joke.

[Surefire]

You know, on many topics I disagree with Righty to Lefty and we have a big debate about it, in this case he is spot on. Lag is a result of other things, its not something you directly work on.

[Righty to Lefty]

You know, on many topics I disagree with Righty to Lefty and we have a big debate about it, in this case he is spot on. Lag is a result of other things, its not something you directly work on.

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE REAL SUREFIRE!!!!! I can't believe this! October 26th will live in infamy!!

[worst_shot_ever]

I don't pretend to be a teaching pro, but I do read a lot of internet golf discourse. There's a few swing thoughts that are supposed to help with lag, but if it's drills your interested in, for whatever it may be worth, perhaps not much, I'll note that this little device is designed to improve your "feel" for lag pressure by hightening the feel of the index finger through the swing: www.pureballstriker.com The guy who sells it is a "Golf Machine" guy. From what I've seen on the other big golf forum, it get's good reviews from those who use it, most of whom also like to talk in terms of "power accumulators" and PP#3s. I just got one a week ago, I like the little bit of practice I've tried with it so far. I haven't had a chance to really go to town on it yet, though, so I can't swear to its effectiveness or not. Although it's marketed to highlight lag pressure, intellectually it seems to me that the focus on the index finger through the swing would be aimed at the feel of "release" moerso than "lag," but maybe those concepts are inextricably intertwined. Anyway, the good news is it's an inexpensive device, so if you don't like it, you've not lost much. Good luck.

[grantc79]

Righty to Lefty nailed it.

That's retarded.

[grantc79]

You know, on many topics I disagree with Righty to Lefty and we have a big debate about it, in this case he is spot on. Lag is a result of other things, its not something you directly work on.

As your swing becomes more powerful there will naturally be more down force put on your wrists and that will likely help you hold that lever angle longer into your downswing (Like a whip cracking, if you don't apply much force it doesn't really make much noise, but if you really generate some speed it will realease all of that energy stored at the last possible moment which is lag my friend.) You can't maintain your lag because either you aren't producing enough hip and leg drive (which will natually create the angles as you transition from your backswing to your downswing) or your wrists simply aren't flexible enough. If a pro walked by and you told him that you were working on your lag today he may be professional on the outside but on the inside he or she would be saying " are you serious." That is because it isn't something that you can work on and improve by focusing on it while you are practicing like you can alignment for example. I guess I just don't understand why you are so fixated on this aspect of the swing because you are not going to hit the ball any further because you are not supplying anymore speed. Yes you are attempting to store the energy that you are supplying longer before it is released but you are making your swing become mechanical which is counterproductive. If you want to create and maintain lag more efficiently adopt a fitness plan and focus on making your golf specific muscles stronger and faster and then you will have "insta-lag" in about 2 months! I think I'm gonna start marketing "insta-lag" and selling it in pill form! Just a joke.

Sorry but this is completely bogus.

It has nothing to do with club head speed due to the fact that some pros have faster club head speed than others yet all lag the club pretty well. Corey Pavin for example has great lag and his swing speed isn't that great at all. JB Holmes has great lag and his swing speed is off the charts. Sergio has more lag than anyone on the tour IMO and he isn't as strong or powerful as JB Holmes. As a rightie you have to train your right hand to stay passive. You have to teach your hand not to throw the club away. You have to train your hands to move in a straight line downwards and train yourself to make a smooth turn at the top. I'm still mastering it but I have seen myself on DVD from my teacher do it perfectly in one swing then horribly the next swing and I sincerely doubt I became 100% more explosive or stronger in that 10 seconds of space. I don't want to be rude and its rare that I would make such an "absolute" statement on something golf related but you literally have no idea what you are talking about here.

[Dub]

Last couple of rounds I've been trying to extend my left thumb down the shaft more when making my grip. For the most part, my ball striking is greatly improved...more solid....higher.....more distance.

I think that this is the result of more lag coming into the impact zone.

It's been very wierd with my driver and woods, though. It will take some more time getting steady with the changes here. The irons and wedges were immediately better.

[verse214]

From what I understand, the better your overall swing mechanics are, the more optimal your lag will become.

However, if you truly want to focus on "creating" or "increasing" your lag:

I would work on and focus on keeping a wide arc on your backswing (step one). You can do this by working on a one piece takeaway where you do not move your arms or break your wrists until you have to at the top of the backswing.

Step two: once you reach the top of your back swing, you want to drop you hands sharply (but naturally) and once you drop to about waist high, that is when you really put some force in your swing and whip the club and club head out to the target accelerating through the ball.

The drop in your hands will create the lag, but remember that you don't want to really accelerate your hands until they are below your waist...

this should work to increase lag, although personally i think if you work on swing mechanics you'll be better off instead of just focusing on this one thing

[Righty to Lefty]

Sorry but this is completely bogus.

Sorry but this is completely bogus.

Well I am not a golf pro but I am an Exercise Science major and have taken plenty of physics and kinesiology classes to be able to understand what is happening to the human body during athletic movements. So in that right I do have a descent idea of what I am talking about because physics is just about as "absolute" as it gets and that's all a golf swing is is a basic base and lever system in which the levers fire in sequence(Hips, shoulders, hands, clubhead). I didn't say that it has to do with clubhead speed because there are other variables such as flexibility and range of motion. I said that it has to do with FORCE applied (how much LAG not SPEED would you have swingin a shaft without a clubhead on it? Now how much lag would you create if you were swinging a club with a two pound head on it? The two pound head will help create down force but not speed). That down force applied even by a seemingly light clubhead creates separation at the top of the backswing between the upper and lower body and creates the sequence where the hips, shoulders, hands, then clubhead pass through the hitting zone even though they didn't start that way at address. It is known that pros get huge amounts of shoulder and hip turn so they are creating huge amounts of seperation and are able to maximize their swing efficiency without tension the lag they create simply delays the clubheads arrival at impact to allow for more force to be applied to the ball. Sergio's hands appear to drop straight down and into the slot because his swing is tension free (by that I mean his flexibility allows it to happen) and the force created by his hips uncoiling drives the club downward. He isn't consciously thinking about dropping his hands downward because how would he possibly catch up to the other million things that go on in the span of about a second that it takes to execute a golf swing. All these attempts by golf magazines giving all these tips (swing inside to out, keep your head down, don't sway, don't do this, do do that) is an attempt to help amatuers like us speed up our learning curve to hopefully one day be able to actually execute a fluid repeatable swing which isn't likely because we didn't start playing the game early enough in life for those movements to be ingrained in muscle memory ( like riding a bike). Then we try to mimick the movements of pros when we see their swings in slow motion, and think that if we do what they do then we will get results like they get. Your body has a natural swing if you try to change it too much you are likely to do more harm than good.That's not how pros play the game at all. They are focused on the target and only the target and not cluttering their focus with swing thoughts. I usually don't say this on here but you have no idea of the golf swing if you believe that focusing on on aspect such as keeping one hand passive will somehow unlock 30 or 40 more yards with every club. You can't train yourself to be "smooth at the top" you can only attempt to maximize your body's efficiency and mimimize tension and the end result is a smooth swing. While you are swingin the club you are thinking about mechanical swing thoughts when you really need to be trying to really connect with how it felt when you got the results you wanted and trying to ingrain that feeling into muscle memory. That's what you should be looking for to improve as a golfer. How can I maximize the force I produce with the least amount of tension and impediments in my swing. My advice hit the gym and increase your flexibility to the max. A pro isn't gonna tell you that because he or she wants to give you lessons and take your money and have you come back when things revert back to your old ways and you can't figure out why. I have said my peace.

WHERE IS SUREFIRE!!!

[Surefire]

I'm around!

I don't think anyone said lag is created by clubhead speed. The point is lag is a result of other actions, rather than a manipulated action itself.

Another thing to consider is that pysically we are all different. So some people are naturally very strong and flexible. They get away without training. We then see one of these guys on the PGA tour or get lessons from one of these guys and think training has no place because this person does not do it. However they are the exception rather than the rule.

Also referring to grants point above. He suggests you have to train your right hand to stay passive.
Lets look at this another way. If the right hand is dominating, there is likely to be a muscle imbalance between left and right side. You could try to train your right hand to be passive but with the timing and other things involved in the golf swing this would be difficult. Instead how about you strengthen your left side so it is not dominated by the right side during the swing?

[grantc79]

I'm around!

There really is only two overarching proper ways to swing though Surefire though you are onto something.

Most players, including most of the guys on the PGA tour are "swingers" which use centrifugal force to accelerate the club head. These guys are typically wide open in the hips and the left side of the body is leading with the club chasing. There is both a right handed and left handed method to swinging. Then you have a few players thrown into the mix like Arnold Palmer and Lee Trevino that use a pushing force from the right arm to drive the club head to the ball. Swinging is far easier to teach but hitting is far easier to duplicate once you get the hang of it. I've been experimenting with both and I have mixed results. I learned as a swinger and that feels more natural. My great shots are not as good and my bad shots are far worse. However, it just feels smoother. However with hitting I can literally switch from cavity backs to no offset blades and flush 3 irons all day long. It is just far easier to control and the club face is a lot more predictable.

[grantc79]

Sergio's hands appear to drop straight down and into the slot because his swing is tension free (by that I mean his flexibility allows it to happen) and the force created by his hips uncoiling drives the club downward. He isn't consciously thinking about dropping his hands downward because how would he possibly catch up to the other million things that go on in the span of about a second that it takes to execute a golf swing.

You are right he isn't consciously trying to drop his hands because it is natural to him. But he wasn't born with that knowledge, he learned it.

My forte was always basketball and I literally have a jump shot that could get me in the NBA. That was my forte in high school and had I not become a drunken potthead as a senior in high school would have been my forte in college. The only problem is I stopped growing at 6'5 in 9th grade when I should have hit 6'10 :( My form is perfect, the snap of my wrist precise and just as fluid from near half court as it is from the free throw line but I wasn't born with it. I learned it from hours, and hours, and hours shooting the proper way. Golf is no different. But the problem I suffer from is making my right wrist passive to sustain lag because as a jump shooter in basketball I have taught myself to pop my wrist my entire life. Popping the right wrist isn't conducive to hitting good golf shots but having a flat trailing wrist is which is why hockey players typically make good golfers because they have been hitting slap shots which if you look at a slap shot and a golf swing is very similar especially in the key areas like the wrists.

All these attempts by golf magazines giving all these tips (swing inside to out, keep your head down, don't sway, don't do this, do do that) is an attempt to help amatuers like us speed up our learning curve to hopefully one day be able to actually execute a fluid repeatable swing which isn't likely because we didn't start playing the game early enough in life for those movements to be ingrained in muscle memory.

I don't know about old age, but I'm 29 and my muscles are learning fine.

I started playing Golf in May (didn't even know how to grip a club until then) and I posted an 83 2 days ago here at Willowdale which plays at least 4 strokes tougher than any other course I have played due to the fact that south Louisiana has 200 year old oak trees in the middle of our fairways for some stupid reason. Believe me, it wasn't because of my short game because I one putted 2 times and 3 putted 3 times. The only thing it takes is the amount of time and repetitive actions required to do it. I'm 29 and currently retired from real estate development so I play golf for hours everyday and I'm picking it up nicely.

Then we try to mimick the movements of pros when we see their swings in slow motion, and think that if we do what they do then we will get results like they get. Your body has a natural swing if you try to change it too much you are likely to do more harm than good.That's not how pros play the game at all. They are focused on the target and only the target and not cluttering their focus with swing thoughts.

Your body doesn't have a natural swing. You aren't born with a certain golf swing in mind. That is why if you ask a teaching pro who is easier to teach an 18 year old who has been doing it horribly wrong since they were 6 or a 30 year old with equal athletic ability who has never even seen a golf club then the obvious choice is the 30 year old. The reason is because they have no current swing and they don't have to un-learn their "natural swing" which is probably horribly wrong.

Also pro's play without thinking about their swing because subconscious competent. You have: Subconscious incompetent: Don't know you aren't doing it right. Conscious incompetent: Know you are doing it wrong. Conscious competent: Can do it right but only if you think about it. Subconscious competent: Do it right without thinking about it. Their golf swing, like my jump shot, a secretaries typing, a carpenters hammer stroke, Dan Marino's passing release, and you for whatever you have mastered in your life is perfect. We don't have to think about it, we just do. That doesn't come from starting at age 3 like Tiger, that comes from logging countless hours until you can "just do". Early on I suffered from tightening my left wrist at the top of my back swing which wouldn't allow the club face to roll which means I'd push everything right. I didn't say "well that's just my natural swing" and start aiming way left as many do. I simply went to the range a couple hours a day for a couple of weeks and said "distance or trajectory be damned the wrist will roll and the ball will go left" and after awhile I stopped thinking about it and now "it just does."

You can't train yourself to be "smooth at the top" you can only attempt to maximize your body's efficiency and mimimize tension and the end result is a smooth swing. While you are swingin the club you are thinking about mechanical swing thoughts when you really need to be trying to really connect with how it felt when you got the results you wanted and trying to ingrain that feeling into muscle memory. That's what you should be looking for to improve as a golfer. How can I maximize the force I produce with the least amount of tension and impediments in my swing. My advice hit the gym and increase your flexibility to the max. A pro isn't gonna tell you that because he or she wants to give you lessons and take your money and have you come back when things revert back to your old ways and you can't figure out why. I have said my peace.

There is truth to that which is why which I heard about it early on from the two Pros that I see which is Rob Noel and his understudy Chris Wertz.

Wertz began playing 6 years ago at age 25 and is now a plus handicapper. One of Wertz's big things is he is TPI certified and is further pursuing that and lesson one they showed me a lot of golfing exercises that I can do that will help my golf game. My very first lesson I told Rob that I hit them gym pretty regularly and he said fantastic Chris will show you some exercises that will help you. But if all it took was athletic ability to have a great golf swing then John Daly wouldn't hit the ball further than Tiger and Charles Barkeley would have a better swing than he does now wouldn't he.

[jambalaya]

I am always searching for that one thing that I am doing wrong in my backswing that prevents me from consistently making a good shot. That is usually where I find the problem. Correct the problem and your downswing will improve including lag. A good example for me is when I first heard the concept of getting a flat left wrist at the top of my backswing. There is no question incorporating this into my backswing increased lag. Doing a proper rotation that keeps the arms connected and in front of my torso increases lag for me. I just don't find many things that you consciously do on the downswing that seems to help on a consistent basis. But there are drills that help you feel lag.

Here something called the right hand drill:

http://mysite.verizon.net/gregjwillis/LESSON1.htm

This guy moderates another forum I frequent and this drill has been a topic of discussion many times. It cements in your mind what your wrist positions have to be to have good lag, and it allows you too feel lag with half swings, but thinking about and maitaining those positions on a full swing in problematic.

[$2 Nassau]

Lag is just constant acceleration through the ball. In my experience, any attempt to artificially create / hold lag is disasterous and unnatural.

Just be mindful that you need to accelerate through the ball. Lag will just occur naturally. A smooth transition from the top and good tempo helps as well.

[tm22721]

My 3/4 swing goes just as far or maybe even farther due to more roll out. I know I have a problem of casting and not holding the lag. Are there any specific drills in holding the lag? If I try to emphasize the lag in my swing I push most of the shots to the right.

Your arms are probably being left behind the core ie you are 'out of sync'.

Your arms must stop turning to the top when your shoulders stop. If the arms are late by one or two video frames, OK. Anything more than that and the club gets stuck too far inside.

[sonicblue]

Here's some typical golf advice for ya.....:-p

Lag comes from doing things that DON'T UNCREATE it. What I mean by that is, no, you cannot concentrate on lag. I wouldn't recommend bearing down on your wrists to "really hinge them" or such. Your wrists will naturally hinge/cock if you have the proper grip and proper swing plane, and your backswing properly uses torso/shoulders instead of arms. On the downswing, as long as you also let those parts do the majority of the "effort," your lag will not "come undone." If you don't "go at it" with the hands, again, the lag will persist.

In short, you don't "hold lag," IMHO, you just "don't let go of it." As far as drills, I like to simply take slow, 1/2 swings, and just focus on deadening my hands completely. As you swing down, point the butt of the club at the ball, and try to keep it pointing at the ball as long as possible. You will have to pass it through that point, but you should be able to continue with your dead hands. You will get to a point, however, where it's actually uncomfortable to keep your wrists hinged. The hands should be just about even with the ball and THAT is the point where they should *snap* down to the impact point. That is your late release, which is what generates the effortless speed we're all looking for. Since your shoulders are still unwinding the downswing, your hands shouldn't be quite fully released when they hit the ball; that should actually happen about 18" past the ball.