What Does the Average Weekend Golfer Shoot?

[Dave2512]

Our home course has three 400 yd par 4's from the white tees, 412-400-438. But the majority are quite a bit shorter, shortest is 302 with a range of them between the longest of 386. Most are 340-360. From the blues, which are two up from the back they are much longer. Five are 420 plus and six are between 332 and 406. Crazy thing is we have two sub 500 yd par 5's. We don't play a lot of driver here because it's CO. If I mentioned how far the ball flies I'd probably get laughed off the forum. A 4w is a driver here.

[Jeremie Boop]

Our home course has three 400 yd par 4's from the white tees, 412-400-438. But the majority are quite a bit shorter, shortest is 302 with a range of them between the longest of 386. Most are 340-360. From the blues, which are two up from the back they are much longer. Five are 420 plus and six are between 332 and 406. Crazy thing is we have two sub 500 yd par 5's. We don't play a lot of driver here because it's CO. If I mentioned how far the ball flies I'd probably get laughed off the forum. A 4w is a driver here.

That of course would make sense, being that the ball flies so much further there they would need to increase the length of the holes to compensate. White tee's here are usually the 2nd longest tees, Tips/whites/yellow/red *pro/amature/senior/womens*. Even from the tips most courses around where I live are sub 7000 and most are sub 6800.

[Dave2512]

That of course would make sense, being that the ball flies so much further there they would need to increase the length of the holes to compensate. White tee's here are usually the 2nd longest tees, Tips/whites/yellow/red *pro/amature/senior/womens*. Even from the tips most courses around where I live are sub 7000 and most are sub 6800.

Yeah it's nuts here. Some courses have 6 tees and yeah the ball flies but 7700 yds is excessive. Though I look at course ratings as much as the distance. Some of the tougher ones here are short by Colorado standards.

[Jeremie Boop]

Yeah it's nuts here. Some courses have 6 tees and yeah the ball flies but 7700 yds is excessive. Though I look at course ratings as much as the distance. Some of the tougher ones here are short by Colorado standards.

Yeah, if distance is easy to come by they'll add in other obstacles to make the course tough. A short course with a lot of trees/doglegs/water is very much harder to play than a course that is just long.

[Dave2512]

Anyway back to weekend golfers. What kills me is in addition to the weekend golfer trying to muscle their way around the course most of the newer courses here go overboard with difficulty of the design and setup. I was set to start a whining thread about my home course but we have enough griping threads. I don't mind the setup but when the course is situated in a 50+ community and the majority of the patrons are ARRP folks what's the point of cutting holes on the apex of ridges all summer. Most of the people playing weekend golf aren't going to stick an approach on the highest point of the green. When they miss they're left with a long chip up from a collection area that's too scruffy to putt from. It becomes a volley back and forth until they inch into the hole.

[rkim291968]

Anyway back to weekend golfers. What kills me is in addition to the weekend golfer trying to muscle their way around the course most of the newer courses here go overboard with difficulty of the design and setup. I was set to start a whining thread about my home course but we have enough griping threads. I don't mind the setup but when the course is situated in a 50+ community and the majority of the patrons are ARRP folks what's the point of cutting holes on the apex of ridges all summer. Most of the people playing weekend golf aren't going to stick an approach on the highest point of the green. When they miss they're left with a long chip up from a collection area that's too scruffy to putt from. It becomes a volley back and forth until they inch into the hole.

I believe, sometimes, the guy cutting hole gets joy out of making them most difficult.  In one course I played, all the holes seems to be on top of mound.   I think I had three 3 putts, and 1 four putt that day.   I was thinking it could not have been accident that all the holes were where they were.

According to an article I read on why modern courses are getting longer, they are built to fit as many houses as they can along the course.  This doesn't bode well for weekend golfers.

[Dave2512]

I believe, sometimes, the guy cutting hole gets joy out of making them most difficult.

I don't doubt it but IMO it's adding to the problem of slow play. The guy taking a 100+ strokes is already in trouble without ultra tricky hole placements.

[Meltdwhiskey]

If your doing this ^ there is no way your a consistent enough long iron player to make up those strokes anyway. 7 irons off the tee? A player of that skill level on a good hit might hit a 7 iron 150 yards. He then has 250 yards to the green for his 2nd?

If you are at that level of play there is no strategy or mindset that will lead to better scores. You just have to improve your skill level

I think this has some mis-info and ignores some things.  And I'll add some things from response posts but didn't want to quote but so many posts:

1. Most par 4's are not 400 yards long.  And if a high handicap is playing from a set of tees where that is the norm - he should move up a set.

2. I think the whites are usually the 3rd longest set of tees and the average par 4 is closer to 350 or 360 from these. At least on the courses I play.

3. But even if they are at a 400 yard hole, maybe that is the one where they get double bogey.  A round of 90 would be composed of a bunch of bogeys, a few pars and a few doubles. This would be one of the doubles.  But it is still better than going driver all day and getting a few lost balls or OB's.  If you go lost ball and have to re-tee, you have to par a 400 yard hole in order to get a double.  More likely you get an 8 - which is a card killer.  High handicaps get a lot of doubles on 400yd par 4's.

4. As Dave said, high caps don't get a lot of greens anyway.  Taking on any risk in order to get on a 400 yarder in 2 is probably not the smartest play.

[meenman]

I think this has some mis-info and ignores some things.  And I'll add some things from response posts but didn't want to quote but so many posts:

1. Most par 4's are not 400 yards long.  And if a high handicap is playing from a set of tees where that is the norm - he should move up a set.

2. I think the whites are usually the 3rd longest set of tees and the average par 4 is closer to 350 or 360 from these. At least on the courses I play.

3. But even if they are at a 400 yard hole, maybe that is the one where they get double bogey.  A round of 90 would be composed of a bunch of bogeys, a few pars and a few doubles. This would be one of the doubles.  But it is still better than going driver all day and getting a few lost balls or OB's.  If you go lost ball and have to re-tee, you have to par a 400 yard hole in order to get a double.  More likely you get an 8 - which is a card killer.  High handicaps get a lot of doubles on 400yd par 4's.

4. As Dave said, high caps don't get a lot of greens anyway.  Taking on any risk in order to get on a 400 yarder in 2 is probably not the smartest play.

I do not think there was mis-info - every course is different.

Myself and another in my group always discuss the possibility of playing with irons only - it just is not possible at our course (we play at a little over 6500 from the whites).

None of the guys I play with hit internet yardage with their drivers - a real good drive is 230ish and the norm for our group is closer to 210. Even a guy that hits a 7 iron 150 yards is only going to reach 3 fairways (there are 3 par 4s that are 350-360 yards) Even on the short ones - guaranteeing that we will hit 3 good 7 or 8 irons is far from a given. That short drive is just going to make the 2nd shot tougher with trees, water and bunkers everywhere.

[Meltdwhiskey]

I do not think there was mis-info - every course is different.

Myself and another in my group always discuss the possibility of playing with irons only - it just is not possible at our course (we play at a little over 6500 from the whites).

None of the guys I play with hit internet yardage with their drivers - a real good drive is 230ish and the norm for our group is closer to 210. Even a guy that hits a 7 iron 150 yards is only going to reach 3 fairways (there are 3 par 4s that are 350-360 yards) Even on the short ones - guaranteeing that we will hit 3 good 7 or 8 irons is far from a given. That short drive is just going to make the 2nd shot tougher with trees, water and bunkers everywhere.

Maybe the Atlanta area courses are just a little different from most.  On most (not all) courses here, the coding is Black (tips), Blue (Championship), White (Men's), Red (Women's).  And most White layouts are in the 6000 yard range.  6500 is probably longer than most Blues that I see.  And 400 is longer than most par 4's I see.  And I'd imagine that most higher caps would play from the shortest tees that aren't the women's.

But if your numbers are the norm - I stand corrected. I don't travel a lot for golf.  But even still, I contend that the average higher cap has a greater chance of those 8's with driver than he does with 5i, 6i, 7i.  And IMO, getting the 8's off the card is the first step to scoring better.

[meenman]

Maybe the Atlanta area courses are just a little different from most.  On most (not all) courses here, the coding is Black (tips), Blue (Championship), White (Men's), Red (Women's).  And most White layouts are in the 6000 yard range.  6500 is probably longer than most Blues that I see.  And 400 is longer than most par 4's I see.  And I'd imagine that most higher caps would play from the shortest tees that aren't the women's.

But if your numbers are the norm - I stand corrected. I don't travel a lot for golf.  But even still, I contend that the average higher cap has a greater chance of those 8's with driver than he does with 5i, 6i, 7i.  And IMO, getting the 8's off the card is the first step to scoring better.

Dont get me wrong - there are courses where I would never dream of teeing off with more than a 5 iron (even from their *tips.*)

I know my friends up north struggle when they play down here and we usually play a wide variety of courses when they visit - even some of the 6200 yard courses are a struggle for them.

The average weekend golfer is not on this forum - we are *golf geeks* just for joining. The average weekend guy bases the tees he plays based on how far he once hit his driver.

The group I play with all have similar handicaps, but all have a quirk. One cant get out of a bunker,one 3 putts, the long hitter is a bit wild with his drives,one seems to either par or snowman - i am the most consistent of the bunch - pretty much bogey or double every hole with the pars happening here and there and birdies and triples very rarely sprinkled in.

[Meltdwhiskey]

I know my friends up north struggle when they play down here and we usually play a wide variety of courses when they visit - even some of the 6200 yard courses are a struggle for them.

Just curious about this sentence.  Are you saying they struggle with distance b/c the ball doesn't go as far in Florida b/c of the humidity/elevation?

[meenman]

Just curious about this sentence.  Are you saying they struggle with distance b/c the ball doesn't go as far in Florida b/c of the humidity/elevation?

I think they struggle because the small town courses they play up north are shorter and lack the hazards we have here.

[Jeremie Boop]

Dont get me wrong - there are courses where I would never dream of teeing off with more than a 5 iron (even from their *tips.*)

I know my friends up north struggle when they play down here and we usually play a wide variety of courses when they visit - even some of the 6200 yard courses are a struggle for them.

The average weekend golfer is not on this forum - we are *golf geeks* just for joining. The average weekend guy bases the tees he plays based on how far he once hit his driver.

The group I play with all have similar handicaps, but all have a quirk. One cant get out of a bunker,one 3 putts, the long hitter is a bit wild with his drives,one seems to either par or snowman - i am the most consistent of the bunch - pretty much bogey or double every hole with the pars happening here and there and birdies and triples very rarely sprinkled in.

You know your explanation of your game is pretty much spot on with mine and our HC is pretty much the same.

[David in FL]

[U][/U][quote name="Meltdwhiskey" url="/t/2123/what-does-the-average-weekend-golfer-shoot/216#post_892729"] Just curious about this sentence.  Are you saying they struggle with distance b/c the ball doesn't go as far in Florida b/c of the humidity/elevation? [/quote] Slightly off topic, but I can't let it pass.... The ball tends to fly further when humidity is high, not shorter, because humid air is less dense. Somewhat contrary to what you might expect. Back on topic now.......

[Meltdwhiskey]

Slightly off topic, but I can't let it pass....

The ball tends to fly further when humidity is high, not shorter, because humid air is less dense. Somewhat contrary to what you might expect.

So is it just elevation?  The ball does go further in these high desert type places than on alligator habitat courses, right?

[scv76]

California must have a pretty high percentage of high scoring weekend golfers.

I golf like crap most of the time but I look pretty good compared to what I see out on the course on weekends.

My guess is a score between 115-125 is what the poor golfers shoot, and between 85-100 for the better ones i have seen.

[Wisguy]

Because I am not buying that playing that way would lead to lower scores. I would bet you would still screw up even with hitting those lesser clubs.

On short par 4's I tee off with irons. But if I tee'd off with a hybrid on a par 5 that is gonna make that hole a lot harder for me. I do not feel I am that much more accurate with my hybrid off the tee than my driver to make the loss of 50 yards worthwhile.

You might hit slightly more fairways playing the way you described, but the length of your second and third shots would require added precision that a 20 plus HCP player doesnt have anyway.

The only way to lower your handicap is to improve your skill level. Sure you might think lets make the smart play and tee off with a 4 iron on this hole, but if you cant consistently hit a strong contact 4 iron down the middle it's not going to work out for you anyway.

The highlighted portion of your statement above is simply wrong (well, to honest, most of what you are saying is wrong) and it puzzles me why someone who claims to have as much experience as you allege can be so oblivious to the realities of playing golf - in the real world, there are more factors that influence scoring than having precision in ball striking, as you assert.  Course management (i.e. hitting dumber, riskier shots instead of safe ones) can easily be responsible for a 10+-shot swing in score on a bad day for a higher handicap player and will account for at least several strokes even on a decent day.

KW, the problem with your argument is that it makes a number of inaccurate assumptions.  It assumes that higher handicappers have the same problems with all of their clubs and that those same problems would lead to the same bad results no matter what.  As Dave mentioned above, no one is slicing a 7-iron two fairways over, as they might do with a driver.  A typical higher handicapper might very easily, on a bad driving day, slice 5+ balls into the woods, in a lake, or OB using a driver but would make fewer bad shots with an iron and with those iron tee shots that are poorly struck, he would be able to find and play most if not all of them.  Five lost balls - that's a whole lot of strokes lost, far more than would be accounted for by having to hit three shots to get on a par-4 or four shots to get on to a par-5; higher handicap players are only hitting at most a few GIR a round, so they'd still likely be pitching or chipping their third or fourth shots anyway.  Plus, for every ball sliced 150 yards to the right that is playable and not lost, figure at least one extra shot to get it back in play; if the fairways are separated by a line of trees (very common on most of the courses that I've played), that could easily add up to several more shots dealing with shots into trees.  Think about the times you hit to lay up versus when you are going for the green on a long shot where you'll have to hit hard - which one do you hit more successfully? I bet I am at least 3x more likely to hit an easy swing shot 100-150 yards out onto the fairway in my target layup area than get within easy chipping distance when the green is over 200 yards away.  Playing mid-irons off the tee would be the same thing, a nice easy swing is a more accurate swing.  Have you ever seen a shot dispersion study?  The longer the club, the farther it will be hitting from center of the fairway on average.

You are also assuming that all par-4s are much longer than they tend to be playing from the white tees - I'd say the average par-4 is about 360yds, not 400 yards, and the average high handicapper is hitting a 400+ yard hole in regulation no more than once out of four or five tries at the most, anyway.  Two reasonable 7-irons in a row will put me about 300-320 out, with a 40-60 yard pitch, not a difficult shot (at least not difficult to hit a green - getting it within one-putt range is a different story with a less-than-full swing).