Putting: SBST vs Arc

[dpmille]

I really would like to know the difference between the two. I feel like i move the club SBST, but the face of the putter opens and shuts, is this an arced stroke? Or does an arc stroke mean the putter travels along an arced line. I am trying to figure out which is better for me but i feel like the consistency of the arc is tough. Any thoughts would be great.

[right handed phil mickelson]

the arc is when it moves on an arched line. What you need to do is swing the putter back and through while looking at the face of the putter the whole time. This lets you look at the putter while trying to keep the face square the whole time. Keep trying to do this and you will get the feel of the putter face being square back and through.

[iacas]

  right handed phil mickelson said:

the arc is when it moves on an arched line. What you need to do is swing the putter back and through while looking at the face of the putter the whole time. This lets you look at the putter while trying to keep the face square the whole time. Keep trying to do this and you will get the feel of the putter face being square back and through.

I think that's some of the worst advice ever. I think that 99.9% of people should swing with an arc stroke, with the putter face opening and closing relative to the target line and square to the arc.

I think it's completely unnatural to putt "straight back, straight through." Scotty Cameron agrees. So does Dean Thompson, the Z-Factor inventor.

[rudygu]

  dpmille said:

I am trying to figure out which is better for me but i feel like the consistency of the arc is tough. Any thoughts would be great.

I think that an arc stroke is inherently more consistent as it does not require manipulation of the wrists. The key is to find the spot in your arc where the clubhead is moving along the target line (see the graphic posted by iacas) and consistently setup with the ball at that point.

[HSip]

  iacas said:

I think that's some of the worst advice ever. I think that 99.9% of people should swing with an arc stroke, with the putter face opening and closing relative to the target line and square to the arc.

Got to agree with iacas on this one. Straight back, straight through works on short putts but on any slow or long (and heaven forbid a slow

and long) putt it can get you into trouble. My thought is that I don't want to have this stroke for this length putt and this stroke for anything longer. For consistency I vote for the arc stoke. Cheers

[Elvisliveson]

I agree with iacas; SBST is an unatural movement for almost everyone. Why would you want to stress your hands and arms by making them go through the unecessary strain of such a movement when putting is supposed to be all about touch and feel?

[Dub]

  Elvisliveson said:

I agree with iacas; SBST is an unatural movement for almost everyone. Why would you want to stress your hands and arms by making them go through the unecessary strain of such a movement when putting is supposed to be all about touch and feel?

Exaclty why you'll never find a rigid SBST golfer who lag putts worth a crap.

Even with SBST....you have some arc....physics demand it. The putting stroke should be the last place you battle yourself.....let it flow.

[elsito99]

I use a SBST and find I am a much better putter with it than the arc. Trying to hit the ball at the exact point of the arc where the face is square relative to the line is very inaccurate in my opinion, causing misses right and left. After seeing Tiger block short putts to the right it kind of hit me that even he has trouble timing the arc sometimes.

Anyways, try different strokes and see what feels best. For me it is a close to the ball tight stance and a flatter lie angle on the putter. I went to the arc stroke for a little bit and it was the worst most inaccurate feeling, especially on 3-6 footers.


I don't know about the 99.9% comment, seems about 49.99999% too much.

[Leftygolfer]

I try to be SBST on my stroke. I am a Pelz fan and it isn't "unnatural" if you have the hands dirrectly below the shoulders and rock them. On the long ones (70 plus feet) I would use a chip-putt type to get enough power in the stroke.

Do I know exactly if I do this? No, I have never worked with a video camera.

Does Phil, his biggest student (pelz). No he has a slight arc stroke. But there are great putters who do use straight back and straight through.
Set up is everything. It would be better to not manipulate the hands and have a arc stroke (hands outside of shoulders) than to manipulate the hands to have the SBST.

I am not perfect. I don't practice enough, I don't have all the feedback neccessary to know if I am using that stroke. I plan on buying the putting rails next winter to ingrain that putting style. I will let you know next year if I am a better putter or not. I have a feeling I will start more putts online than I do now.

[JaY_B]

The putter head will only follow a straight back and straight through path on the shortest of putts, trying to go straight back straight through will lead to a square to closed to square to open club face (set up, backswing, impact, follow through) imo. This is too inconsistent, watch all the top putters... in fact any professional on tour and everyone will have a slight arc to their stroke.

[David in FL]

I have to admit to being a SBST putter.

Most people will agree that accuracy with the full swing is achieved by maintaining the clubhead square to the target line for as long as possible through impact. I simply prefer to apply the same process to my putting.....to do otherwise has always struck me as counter-intuitive.

Disclaimer......I consider myself a decent putter, but by no means great .

[Leftygolfer]

The key to make it not unnatural is to have the hands directly under the shoulders. If you don't do this you have to manipulate the hands. there have been/are great putters on tour that use the SBST method. My memory isn't that great but I know that a few of Pelz's students on tour definitely are SBST putters.

[iacas]

  elsito99 said:

Trying to hit the ball at the exact point of the arc where the face is square relative to the line is very inaccurate in my opinion, causing misses right and left.

I think it's far more accurate than trying to time the manipulation of the wrists required on an SBST stroke.

  elsito99 said:

I don't know about the 99.9% comment, seems about 49.99999% too much.

Dean Thompson has worked with thousands of professional golfers. He's found two that putt square to square, and even those guys have to putt with an arc stroke for putts over about 20 to 25 feet.

That's where I get that number. The vast, vast, VAST majority of pros putt with an arc stroke.

  Leftygolfer said:

I try to be SBST on my stroke. I am a Pelz fan and it isn't "unnatural" if you have the hands dirrectly below the shoulders and rock them.

In order to do that you have to slump your shoulders. They can't just rock, because that would involve rotation about the only thing they can rotate: your spine. Since your spine is on an inclined plane, that's naturally an arc stroke - just like your full swing ("rotation about your spine").

The position of your hands relative to your shoulders really doesn't matter. Arc stroke putters have their hands below their shoulders too.

  Leftygolfer said:

Do I know exactly if I do this? No, I have never worked with a video camera.

Yeah, that's the thing - a lot of SBST people are actually arc-ers that don't know it.

  Leftygolfer said:

But there are great putters who do use straight back and straight through.

Can you name one? Every great putter I can think of uses an arc. From Arnie to Jack to Tiger to Ben Crenshaw and Brad Faxon. Loren Roberts. Sergio when he putted well a long time ago. Seve. Everyone with a belly putter talks about how much easier it is to release the face (i.e. let it close along the arc).

  David in FL said:

Most people will agree that accuracy with the full swing is achieved by maintaining the clubhead square to the target line for as long as possible through impact.

I don't think most people would agree to that at all, no. Not at all. The only way you can have a clubhead square to the target line for longer than a brief moment (impact) would be to open the clubface before and after impact. That's an unnatural and counter-productive move that requires a heck of a lot of wrist manipulation.

Look, I believe what I believe quite firmly, having thought about it (inclined plane, etc.), having seen the best putters, having talked with people like Dean Thompson and Scotty Cameron, and having tried the various things out for myself. I'm not trying to disparage anyone here who might putt SBST (and odds are they don't, even if they think they do), but I'm rather adamant about my position because I think that if you do try to putt SBST, you're hurting yourself.

[dpmille]

so if the putter face opens and closes, it is an arced storke?

[Leftygolfer]

Tom Watson.

I will have my wife video tape me and I will tell you for sure the way I putt.

I do not think it is fair to discount Pelz. I don't see any of his schools closing and they aren't cheap. People must be putting better after working with him or he wouldn't be in business.

And the shoulders rock up and down not around.

[iacas]

  dpmille said:

so if the putter face opens and closes, it is an arced storke?

And if it moves inside the target line on the takeaway and follow through.

The putter opens and closes relative to the target line, but not to the stroke. To the stroke, it's square.

  Leftygolfer said:

Tom Watson.

You're gonna cite a guy famous for getting the yips in recent years, and a guy who, when he was winning majors, had more of an arc stroke? The first (and only) video I saw of him on YouTube showed him trying to be SBST with his path, but the face opened and closed.

The Z Factor has a pretty shallow arc as one of its settings. Perhaps some people are confusing a small arc with SBST. I've even read some things online - some from what appeared to be a book - that listed Tiger Woods of all people as having an SBST stroke. Preposterous!

  Leftygolfer said:

I do not think it is fair to discount Pelz. I don't see any of his schools closing and they aren't cheap. People must be putting better after working with him or he wouldn't be in business.

That's really not proof of anything, c'mon... you know that. Particularly since his short game schools are about a heck of a lot more than putting, and despite some well-known putting issues, Pelz can't even convert his one famous student to SBST.

I've seen his putting schools. If people putt better after going to his schools, it may just be because he gets them in a better setup position.

  Leftygolfer said:

And the shoulders rock up and down not around.

That's why most good golfers don't do that: rotating about your spine is far more consistent (and is, after all, how you hit a golf ball with every other club in your bag) than trying to "rock" your shoulders.

When most people say "rock" they mean rotate about their spine. You apparently mean a sort of quasi-slumping of one shoulder and then the other. I'll be interested to see your video. Make sure you hit some 30-foot putts. SBST/Arc would be darn near imperceptible on a 5 footer.

[jorruss]

I've also seen a reverse arc stroke, where the hands are held so close to the body that the putter face actually closes slightly going back and opens coming through. I heard someone say once that Watson putted like this for a while but it didn't seem like it to me.

I think either style can work, but it's pretty important to match the putter to the stroke. The SBST strokes work best with a face balanced and/or center shafted putters, where as the heel-shafted toe hang style putters lend themselves better to the arc stroke.

[jorruss]

  iacas said:

I think it's far more accurate than trying to time the manipulation of the wrists required on an SBST stroke.

You are right on iacas. As with the full swing, there is no way you can make a "True" square to square stroke if you are standing to the side of the ball. One would have to have a between the legs stroke with a putter who's shaft enters the head at a 90 degree angle, and we all know both of those are not allowed by the rules of golf.