faults with ghin?

[Que]

Does anyone else find the GHIN system a bit faulty? Not the math...I believe that works pretty well for the most part. I also believe in equitable stroke control. In general, I believe if folks used the system as intended, it's fine. The problem is, too many don't. And I'm not just talking about "sandbaggers" here. I believe true sandbaggers are few and far between and are fairly easy to identify and deal with.

My problem is in the fact that the entire system relies upon the individual to accurately report EVERY score. Even the most conscientious of us forget to record a score from time to time. Furtheremore, how many of your playing buddies out there know they can post 9 hole scores? Match play rounds? Partial rounds? I know guys in my club that play 3 times a week but by the end of the year they will be lucky to have 15 rounds posted to GHIN. It's not because they are dishonest...it's because they just don't think about it. The handicap committe (if your club has one...we don't and I bet less than 1/2 do) can harp on these guys all they want and it won't change.

Also, there is a HUGE difference in my mind between casual rounds and competitive rounds. I realize GHIN attempts to compensate for this with the reporting of tournament scores. However, I question whether or not this is used correctly in the majority of situations.

I believe that if GHIN is to be accurate, it needs to record competitive rounds of golf only. That can be tournament or league play. By doing this, we would for the most part guarantee that each player is trying their hardest and the sandbagging that is out there would be greatly reduced. Responsibility for entering scores would be shifted to the organization putting on the events and taken away from the individual. If anyone has ever been in a bowling league, you know what I am talking about here. You bowl on league night and your scores are reported by the bowling center to the United States Bowling Congress who computes your average. This could very easily be done by the staff at the respective courses.

I realize some will argue that this leaves out the recreational player that does not participate in leagues but wants a handicap. My solution is that the USGA/GHIN should provide access to a free or nominal charge website where recreational players can log in and report scores (I believe there are already other places out there where this can be done). They player would know their handicap and it would be usable for recreational play or competition amongst friends but would not be valid for tournament play.

I know I'm probably not going to change the way the USGA/GHIN does things. But I'd like to know if others feel similarly? Or...if I'm all wet, tell me why.

[Fourputt]

As you pointed out, the fault is not with the GHIN system but with the players themselves, and that isn't going to change. I know of no way to effect such change. When used properly the system is quite effective.

My Men's Club does have a handicap committee and they watchdog our guys fairly carefully. Anyone who posts any really questionable tournament scores can find his handicap adjusted promptly, but it's rare that they have to do anything along those lines.

[iacas]

I believe that if GHIN is to be accurate, it needs to record competitive rounds of golf only.

That's silly. I might play six or seven such rounds an entire year, and a lot of golfers might not even get that many.

As you said - and Fourputt repeated - the problem is with the individuals, not the system itself. Your proposed solution has far bigger problems than the current system's.

[MiniMoe]

Golf is all about integrity and honesty. You call penalties on yourself, and you are supposed to post the correct scores. A handicap is only as honest as the person posting the scores.

[NM Golf]

I am the handicap chairman in the men's association at my course. We have no problem questioning people if we know they are playing and not posting. Just last year we froze a guy who we know was sandbagging. It pissed him off and he did not return this year, and as far as I am concerned good riddance.

Like the others have said, the problem with GHIN is people take advantage and cheat. You are just never going to change that. All you can do is be diligent in your efforts to not allow it in your tournaments. Nothing runs a sandbagger off faster than putting together strong anti-sandbagging rules.

[MiniMoe]

a private club in town will post an even par round for you if you play and dont post a score, or post a score way above your handicap.

[mposter]

For all of the innate human error, i think the system is remarkably flexible. It is not only that golfers do not post scores, but they often post incorrect scores based upon errors made of pure ignorance. My sat group consists for three guys with even higher HC then I (16-23) where two of the members are always surprised about rulings. But they always ask and do want to follow the rules of golf.

After a rough 18 holes today I drove to my home course in hopes of a practicing a few problem areas. I prefer to do this on the course (especially at the cost of only $20 to walk after 4 pm) and hit various bunker shots, chips etc. I felt like I had to "announce" it was practice or I know I would have been asked many times if I posted that round ...

[David in FL]

As others have said, the vast majority of golfers play very few if any tounament/competitive rounds. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that due to the infrequent nature of those rounds, they probably are entered more consistently than casual/non-competitive rounds.

The system is what it is. It's not perfect, but I think it's pretty good. I tend to think there are just as many people out there that tend to under report their outlying high scores in an effort to keep their handicaps artificially low, as there are those sandbagging to increase their handicaps. Until we get to the point where scores are independently collected and entered for each and every round of golf played, there're always going to be inefficiencies in the process......some intentional, and some not.

[RemyM]

Education and peer review are needed for the handicap system to work. It is the club's responsibility to inform members how, when and what needs to be posted. If you know someone does not post scores, or posts incorrectly, you need to bring this to the attention of your handicap committee. I am the chairman of mine. If you club does not have one then they are in violation of their responsibilities and can have their ability to issue handicaps revoked. I have hit people with penalty scores for not posting and I can tell you that word of that gets around pretty quick.

[DavidFehertysBike]

I dont always post my scores either. Sometimes i just want to play and not worry about all of that handicapping crap.

[jorruss]

The GHIN system, like the game in general, is self policed. They count on people being honest and posting scores accordingly. As a player, you are only cheating yourself if you don't post all your rounds and maintain a legit handicap.

Plenty of players skip posting scores if they are too high, for fear of their handicap going up. Others pad their scores to raise their handicap and get more strokes from their playing partners.

In my experience, the sandbaggers often find themselves playing alone or switching courses after wearing out their welcome. The players that claim to be something lower than their actual handicap may have a big head, but in tournaments they always show their true colors.

[DavidFehertysBike]

I do get the idea about the tournament rounds, though. My torunament rounds are often better than my index, just simply because i concentrate more. Especially on the greens. I dont even line up putts sometimes when i play with friends, i just walk up to the ball and putt it. I never do that in a tournament round. And trying to play every round with that level of concentration is just mentally exhusting.

[GDWindowpane]

How do you post a match play round? Don't see how this is feasible when you could be conceded a hole...

[DavidFehertysBike]

How do you post a match play round? Don't see how this is feasible when you could be conceded a hole...

Im curious about this one, too.

[iacas]

How do you post a match play round? Don't see how this is feasible when you could be conceded a hole...

Y'all know these rules are covered at usga.org, right?

Source: Handicap Rules 5-1 c. Scores in All Forms of Competition Scores in both match play and stroke play must be posted for handicap purposes. This includes scores made in match play, in multi-ball, or in team competitions in which players have not completed one or more holes or in which players are requested to pick up when out of contention on a hole. (See Decision 5-1c/1 and Section 4.)

If you're conceded a putt or even an entire hole, you write down the score you most likely would have made. If you're 30 feet away, add two putts and write down that score. If the guy concedes you the hole before you play it, you take par + any handicap strokes you'd get on that hole. Basically, you estimate what you'd have gotten once you start playing the hole, or you take your hole handicap + par on holes you don't play. BTW, "most likely score" is in the definitions :

Source: Handicapping Definitions Most Likely Score A "most likely score" is the score a player must post for handicap purposes if a hole is started but not completed or if the player is conceded a stroke. The most likely score consists of the number of strokes already taken plus, in the player's best judgment, the number of strokes the player would take to complete the hole from that position more than half the time. This number may not exceed the player's Equitable Stroke Control limit. (See Section 4-3.)

[rjfan91]

As you pointed out, the fault is not with the GHIN system but with the players themselves, and that isn't going to change. I know of no way to effect such change. When used properly the system is quite effective.

Agree. Honesty and integrity is not a software problem.

Our men's golf association has a handicap committee as well that is fairly watchful. If you want to discuss issues with ghin, there are plenty: When viewing someone elses score history, it only lists month and year. Not day. Normal folks cannot run reports. IE. Pull a specific group of people for indexes. You have to have access similar to the folks in the pro shop. Pulling one at a time doesn't work when you need to get 70 people. The posting interface is clumsy. Half of our guys still can't seem to figure out how to post a tournament round. The encouragement of knowing your GHIN number for posting sucks. One of our members has some guy posting scores because the guy apparently doesn't know his number. Last posting period, our members handicap dropped 4 shots in one period. We didn't discover it until after he had played in a few events.

[GDWindowpane]

Thanks iacas... You learn something new every day...

[lumpuckeroo]

The GHIN system, like the game in general, is self policed. They count on people being honest and posting scores accordingly. As a player, you are only cheating yourself if you don't post all your rounds and maintain a legit handicap.

I believe one of the reasons that the handicap system doesn't allow you to post higher than a specfic score is to limit sandbaggers bunking the system with an "artifically high" score on one or several holes.