Kenny Perry: Caught Cheating or Not?

[David in FL]

Another inconclusive vote. Only the one camera angle. I'd tend to give him the benefit of the doubt.........now, if it had been Rory Sabatini, I'd say fry his butt!

[Shorty]

Am I the only one that read this in the OP...

It certainly does mean something. It means that some rules officials are too gutless to call some players a cheat when said person has achieved sentimental semi cult status. The video shows what happened and for anyone to suggest it is inconclusive is ridiculous. As Iacas said, Gary player was notorious for this kind of thing, belting the ground down with a 3 wood and then "deciding" to change to a 7 iron or whatever. This one is hardly in the league of dropping a ball or allowing your caddy to when you can't find your own (Player, again) but it is plain to see that it is what it is.

[Leftygolfer]

I voted no. He soled the club to check the lie. I believe he was doing it to see how high the ball was sitting.

[DavidFehertysBike]

It seems inconclusive to me. But those dudes play for big money, so it wouldnt surprise me if it happens has much as Hoffman thinks it does. I dont blame them, id do it too if i had a million dollars on the line.

[PuterPutter]

There's a difference between grounding your club and improving your lie (which I assume you know, and you're just playing devil's advocate a little).

You got me! I was, for the sake of discussion, trying to look at it in the best light possible. I am a big Kenny Perry fan, so I will admit there is some bias in my observation. But his actions do raise some suspicions. No matter what anyone thinks or says the final word is up to the officials. Like calling balls and strikes in MLB. There are rules spelled out in each sport, but there is also wiggle room brought in by every official, referee, umpire, etc. Now we can disagree with their ruling.

[zeg]

What is the reason for this flippant comment?

I think the reason is to express the poster's opinion that he doesn't consider this to be evidence of cheating.

You are clearly one of them and your comment proves it.

Uncalled for.

In case you didn't know, there are rules to this game, and this is pretty clearly a breach of them.

Um, looking at the vote I think it's far from clear that this was a breach.

[BASHERBAKER69]

Well, he patted down the grass behind the ball, which is either testing the playing surface or improving the lie, or something entirely innocent. Its too inconclusive to really say.

Whats the difference between doing what Kenny did, and placing a 3 wood behind the ball in the rough (with a view to hitting the shot with that club) and then putting it back in the bag and hitting 6 iron. Very similar situation, and again it would be inconclusive.

Personally, I would not call an infringement if he were playing with me becasue it's too borderline. However, if he had a long track record of cheating and doing dubious things on the golf course I would think about calling it. It's the embarrassment factor of being in the playing group with a cheat-it's bad for the cheater and it's bad for the 'caller'. Also bare in mind that if you call a cheat, your own conduct on the course will come under closer scrutiny in the future.

By the way, there is a difference between 'cheating' and making an 'honest mistake'. In KP's case, it could not be an 'honest mistake', but with all things taken in to account it is too 50/50 to make a definite judgement.

[wannabe]

No, Kenny didn't cheat or break the rule. His lie was not improved by his action.

[MSDOGS1976]

I'm not sure. It made me think of the 'phantom tag at second base on double plays'. So many times second base is not touched in baseball but the out is counted in a double play. Here the ball didn't move and nothing was removed from behind the ball but an improvement was made. Maybe this is just one of those accepted behaviors on tour.

Most of my playing partners do it and I never say a thing. Maybe it's because I do it sometimes.

[mcfc_nick]

No, Kenny didn't cheat or break the rule. His lie was not improved by his action.

are you serious? do you really believe his lie wasnt improved!

[Uber$winG]

I’m not a Rules scholar, but it seems that it was really bad form.

When he approaches the ball it appears as barely an albescent speck in the grass, then after his multiple groundings one is able to see half the ball.

It is questionable conduct… something a professional should try to avoid.

[GDWindowpane]

If it would have been deemed "improving his lie" what would the penalty have been? DQ for signing an incorrect score card?

[Chief Broom]

I voted no. He soled the club to check the lie. I believe he was doing it to see how high the ball was sitting.

I voted no also for pretty much the same reason. Kenny grounded his club. He obviously did so to see what he was working with, and this is legal. A lot like testing the sand in a trap with your feet as you walk in towards your ball and dig your weight into the sand at address. In the act of grounding his club Kenny tamped down some of the grass behind his ball. It's hard to say but from that angle I would have to think that since the grass stayed tamped down after he grounded the club he had a better chance of striking the ball cleanly, but this occurred as a natural consequence of him fairly grounding his club, so no penalty.

[iacas]

Whats the difference between doing what Kenny did, and placing a 3 wood behind the ball in the rough (with a view to hitting the shot with that club) and then putting it back in the bag and hitting 6 iron. Very similar situation, and again it would be inconclusive.

That's not a very similar solution, and the 3W/6I switch is illegal - it's very much "improving your lie." It's again exactly what Tom Watson called out on Gary Player in the Skins Game.

It'd be one thing to put a 3W down and then decide to hit a 3-iron or a 2-iron (similar clubs), but 3W/6I? Very rare that you'd ever do that. In the end, whether the player improves his lie is a judgment call. It's one of the few grey areas in the rules, and it's why those who are conscientious avoid doing anything that could enter into that grey area of "improving your lie." If my ball's in the rough, I don't need to sole my club. I do so away from the ball (even if it's beside it - it's not behind it) if I want to really test ground conditions.

If it would have been deemed "improving his lie" what would the penalty have been? DQ for signing an incorrect score card?

Well since the tournament's over, there'd be no penalty if it was discovered now (unless perhaps it's considered a serious breach, in which case they could award the title to Hoffman since it occurred in a playoff against only one other player).

And that's the key thing: it was in the playoff, so he couldn't have been DQed, no. He'd get a two-stroke penalty and would thus likely have lost the playoff.

[wannabe]

are you serious? do you really believe his lie wasnt improved!

absolutely. look at the last shot in the video clip. It clearly shows no lie improvement.

It's obvious that the first camera angle showed some grass that was far enough behind the ball so that when Kenny grounded his club, the ball appeared more clearly on the screen.

[M2R]

Rule 13-2. Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play

A player must not improve or allow to be improved:
by any of the following actions:

· pressing a club on the ground,

However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs:

· in grounding the club lightly when addressing the ball,

So was Kenny grounding the club lightly when addressing the ball?


Addressing the Ball
A player has "addressed the ball" when he has taken his stance and has also grounded his club

Ok Kenny clearly grounded his club (lightly is questionable) but did he "take his stance"?


Stance
Taking the "stance" consists in a player placing his feet in position for and preparatory to making a stroke.

I don't see any intent of making a stroke so as far as I can tell he broke the rules. But just in case how does the rule book define a "stroke"?

Stroke
A "stroke" is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball, but if a player checks his downswing voluntarily before the clubhead reaches the ball he has not made a stroke.

If Kenny had reversed the order, taking his practice swing and the pressing the grass down in addressing the ball with the intention of making a stroke I would have reversed my opinion. If Feherty hadn't described the lie as he did I would absolutely vote inconclusive. As it is I'm only 1/2 between cheating and inconclusive but since, "A questionable choice but not blatantly cheating" wasn't a choice ... I rounded up not down.

[JaY_B]

you can hardly see the ball, at the end of the video you can quite clearly see a fair proportion of the ball.

Imo the lie has been improved.

[iacas]

Note too that "intent" doesn't matter here. I've seen some discussion of what his "intent" was earlier on, and the only time the Rules of Golf really mention intent, IIRC, is "intend to strike the ball" (as in "making a stroke"). The rules re: improving your lie simply say you "must not" do so. So if you do so accidentally, well, too bad.

And no, he wasn't taking his stance, so he wasn't grounding his club as part of taking his stance either.

The more I think about it the more convinced I am that, unless the camera lies severely , that he could have been penalized.