I tried to call a penalty today...

[Fourputt]

Maybe in principle there are no gr(e/a)y areas, but in practice there sure are. The mere existence of the hefty tome that is the Decisions is evidence that even rules professionals need guidance in some situations. New decisions are periodically handed down, indicating that new situations arise. Rules clarifications are reasonably regularly made, etc... Even in principle, however, there are enough rules that I'm skeptical that there's unambiguous procedures for every event that could arise.

Show me an ambiguous procedure.

[Jay-Bird]

I'll play devils advocate and ask if there's gray area in this rule:
Rule 7-2 Practice During Round
"A player must not make a practice stroke during play of a hole."

Yet, if you're on a hole adjacent to the practice range and you see a few range balls it's perfectly acceptable to "flick" them back to the range with a club ...
...according to Decision 7-2/5:
"In some circumstances the hitting of a practice range ball back towards the range during the play of a hole would be a breach of Rule 7-2, but the casual flicking of a range ball, apparently only for the purpose of tidying up the course, is not a breach."

Who's to say what constitutes a practice stroke or a "casual flicking"?
Seems kind of gray?

[Ty Haegs]

It is a penalty but it never really mattered to me if someone asked what I hit. There are just too many variables to consider for them to get any benefit from that information I believe.

[RemyM]

Who's to say what constitutes a practice stroke or a "casual flicking"?

Taking your full stance, setup and swing would be practice. Hitting the ball with one hand on the club or even two hands with no set up would be casual flicking.

[Where's the Cart Girl?]

Taking your full stance, setup and swing would be practice. Hitting the ball with one hand on the club or even two hands with no set up would be casual flicking.

What if I setup lefty, even haphazardly, and swing at it? Is that a penalty?

And what if I walk up, no aim, no setup, and "flick" a few practice ball back into the range then walk up, no aim, no setup and play my real shot in the exact same fashion? Did I not just practice? Or play my real one one handed?

...according to Decision 7-2/5:

How the hell does anyone but me know what I'm doing? as soon as you apply a word like

apparently you've pushed balls-deep into the grey area I think.

[Fourputt]

I'll play devils advocate and ask if there's gray area in this rule:

Since you are so good at quoting rules, give us the definition of "

stroke " and you will have answered your own question.

What if I setup lefty, even haphazardly, and swing at it? Is that a penalty?

The rules define what a

stroke is. If you take a practice stroke in any way other than as allowed in Rule 7, then you are in breach. Casual flicking is not a stroke unless you have made a stroke as defined in the Rules of Golf. If you have been playing golf for more than about 1 round you can tell the difference between a casual swat and setting up to make a stroke.

[Cussin hacker]

Maybe in principle there are no gr(e/a)y areas, but in practice there sure are. The mere existence of the hefty tome that is the Decisions is evidence that even rules professionals need guidance in some situations. New decisions are periodically handed down, indicating that new situations arise. Rules clarifications are reasonably regularly made, etc... Even in principle, however, there are enough rules that I'm skeptical that there's unambiguous procedures for every event that could arise.

This is my point exactly. It's the human element that causes the issue. Some folks here act as if I'm calling them personally a dumb ass. You could have 100 people read the rules of golf and there would be a mixture of opinions come from it. Whats grey to one person isn't to another is all I've tried to say.

[Cussin hacker]

Find a few. Go ahead, I'll wait.

The fact that there is a debate going both ways here is proof that people do see grey areas even if you don't. Again thats my whole point!

[2bGood]

I have to agree unless you know the rules extremely well they can seem to be a bit grey. Take the example that started this: one player finding what club another played. Clearly illegal right? Not always!........





8-1/12 Double Caddie Informs One Employer About Club Used by Other
Q. When one caddie is employed by two players, A and B, who are not partners, is it permissible for A, who is about to play, to ask the caddie which club B used for a stroke from a nearby position?
A. Yes. A is entitled to seek from the caddie any information the caddie might possess.


You don't have to look to far to find other examples like this

[sean_miller]

The fact that there is a debate going both ways here is proof that people do see grey areas even if you don't. Again thats my whole point!

There's even a grey area related to whether or not there's a grey area!

The rule books (USGA and R&A;) are relatively concise when one considers all possible scenarios that could occur before, during (through the green), and immediately after a competitive round of golf. If the round isn't competitive, play it where it lies or take an uplayable lie penalty and drop it. Right Tiger? I still think he should not have allowed that rock in the desert to be moved.

[Jay-Bird]

Since you are so good at quoting rules, give us the definition of "

gladly...

Stroke "A "stroke" is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball, but if a player checks his downswing voluntarily before the clubhead reaches the ball he has not made a stroke." So one-handing a shot as you walk by a ball on a hole adjacent to the range is considered "flicking"... but how is the action itself not a "forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball"

[Cussin hacker]

Hummm... Sounds a little grey to me.

[sean_miller]

gladly...

[Where's the Cart Girl?]

The fact that there is a debate going both ways here is proof that people do see grey areas even if you don't. Again thats my whole point!

Exactly. There is an inherent human element at play. Some people in this discussion take the stand that the rules are perfect, it's people that introduce the imperfections. To that I say - Who made the rules in the first place?

Stroke

And even the definition of stroke, exactly as it stated in the rules, can never be considered perfect. Since were splitting hairs at such an excruciating pace...

Who's to say what is forward movement? To use that word is to imply that there is such thing as backward movement, and if that is the case I can hit the ball all day with backward movements and not take a stroke.

[Jay-Bird]

Who's to say what is

It might not be a "stroke", but ... if you move the ball in any way other than permitted by a Rule, it's a one-stroke penalty. Rule 18-2.

[iacas]

The fact that there is a debate going both ways here is proof that people do see grey areas even if you don't. Again thats my whole point!

That doesn't prove anything except that people don't know the rules. Discussion and/or debate doesn't mean the rules have a "grey area."

And as for "tidying up" range balls - it's simple. The competitor is responsible for knowing the purpose of what he's doing. If he's tidying up, no penalty. If he's practicing, penalty. The golfer should penalize himself if he breaks a rule. No grey area. Golf isn't a game with referees - it's not about "doing whatever you can get away with" like football or whatever.

It might not be a "stroke", but ... if you move the ball in any way other than permitted by a Rule, it's a one-stroke penalty. Rule 18-2.

Yep.

[Fourputt]

The fact that there is a debate going both ways here is proof that people do see grey areas even if you don't. Again thats my whole point!

Debate only means that it is being discussed. The wording in the Rules is quite clear. Your lack of comprehension is simply due to the lack of making an effort to understand what is being expressed in the rulebook.

The apparent fact that you are unable to differentiate between a casual flick and a stroke under the rules does not somehow create a gray area in the rules. It only signifies a gray area between your ears.

[Rob]

While against the rules to ask club selection,I think you can ask yardage to the hole. If someone relies on what someone else hit, they`re a dumbass. I used to hit a shot,and say "Damn,I killed that 4 iron" while I only hit 6. I just smiled when the next player airmailed the green.I was only making a statement,to no one in particular.Just play,most of golf is between the ears,and it could be you worry to much. That`s not the reason you lost!