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The Biggest Secret? SLIDE Your Hips


iacas

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Thanks @saevel25 and @iacas for engaging me in the conversation. I think I prefer to just focus mostly on sliding my hips forward after all. After some experimentation, focusing more on that seems to help me shallow earlier. I think I have two questions though, and I’m not sure if you’ve addressed them:

- with regards to the slide, is it about how long you slide or how much you slide or both? 
- any tips as to helping maintain balance when doing the slide? I feel like I really get over my left side, and at times, I feel like I’m going to fall over. I don’t think it’s because it’s something new; in fact, I used to do this move a lot before chasing more vertical force recently.
 

Sliding seems to be a better thought for me on the downswing. Really on the downswing, all I’m really thinking about is sliding, feeling some trail wrist bending back (largely comes naturally to me when I do a proper “hands in, clubhead out” takeaway), and smacking the ball from the inside. Those elements put together seems to get the club head nicely behind the hands for delivery. 

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Just now, ncates00 said:

is it about how long you slide or how much you slide or both

Both, kinda. There's no definitive answer. Some people don't have to go forward much at all, because they're able to just kinda shove their hands forward.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instructor Development, 5 Simple Keys®/Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins • Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 • "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 • Penn-State Behrend Head Coach • • • • • • • • • • :aimpoint: :edel: :true_linkswear:

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@ncates00, does this help?

The FedExCup champ in the video moves his lower center 4½" forward during the downswing. "One of the best ball strikers we've ever captured moves it 6½ " forward.

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instructor Development, 5 Simple Keys®/Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins • Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 • "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 • Penn-State Behrend Head Coach • • • • • • • • • • :aimpoint: :edel: :true_linkswear:

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9 hours ago, iacas said:

@ncates00, does this help?

The FedExCup champ in the video moves his lower center 4½" forward during the downswing. "One of the best ball strikers we've ever captured moves it 6½ " forward.

Yeah, that’s helpful. Thanks, man! I sort of do this. It’s just an athletic reaction in a lot of ways.

To be honest, my issues are almost all backswing-related: I move laterally off the ball a good bit (it seems like I get more speed when I focus more on lateral movement), my hands go out and the club gets inside in the takeaway, I hinge the club UP a lot, my hands get pretty vertical and sit above my trail shoulder, some flying elbow with a flat to slightly cupped lead wrist, face pointed more toward the sky, and then because of all the funky stuff I did on the backswing, and then I lower (but my weight gets back too much on my heels I think) and jump really hard with my upper torso moving up and away from the ball (probably in an attempt to keep the club shallow).

A lot of these things I don’t even try to do; it’s just an ingrained move. The only things I actually try to do is the lateral move off the ball, hinging the club up a lot (because my tendency is to have a shut face and the hinging upward seems to help me open the face or at least get a little more toward a slightly cupped left wrist instead of a very flat wrist), and “whooshing the club head” as loud/hard as I can at or just past the ball. Everything else in my swing is just habit. I’ve tried doing the hands in-club out backswing, but I just can’t do it. 

When I’m on, I hit the ball great, and for a guy who doesn’t swing that fast pretty long too, but when I’m not timing it well, I’ll miss-hit the ball, sometimes really far out of the toe. The ball doesn’t curve too much as it falls within my push to push draw pattern, but I can struggle with contact on the face, again mostly toe-shots are my miss. 

I’m getting off track here, so I apologize. Thanks for the explanations on the hips movement. 

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On 7/2/2021 at 6:46 PM, iacas said:

Both, kinda. There's no definitive answer. Some people don't have to go forward much at all, because they're able to just kinda shove their hands forward.

Brittney Lincicome is a good example of someone with little or even no forward hip slide. 

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instructor Development, 5 Simple Keys®/Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins • Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 • "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 • Penn-State Behrend Head Coach • • • • • • • • • • :aimpoint: :edel: :true_linkswear:

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2 hours ago, Clemsonfan said:

Well look at that.

Thank you for posting it. I don't think I'd have noticed it otherwise. And in a few minutes I was going to post a lesson from yesterday:

image.jpeg

Both are at impact.

Thanks, @Clemsonfan.

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instructor Development, 5 Simple Keys®/Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins • Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 • "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 • Penn-State Behrend Head Coach • • • • • • • • • • :aimpoint: :edel: :true_linkswear:

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Looks like it must be the same player...before and after instruction? Are these captures from a single lesson, or a comparison over time? 

JP Bouffard

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3 hours ago, Big Lex said:

Looks like it must be the same player...before and after instruction? Are these captures from a single lesson, or a comparison over time? 

Which picture are you talking about? The red/green one(s), or the blue/gold one?

I posted this today, too:

The hip slide is often fairly passive and very early.

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instructor Development, 5 Simple Keys®/Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins • Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 • "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 • Penn-State Behrend Head Coach • • • • • • • • • • :aimpoint: :edel: :true_linkswear:

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Thanks....yes I was speaking of the blue/gold ones. So this was in a single lesson, giving the player 2 things to work on. That must be gratifying for both of you. 

If you have time and are interested in answering...I have a couple more questions. 

1. How good was the player when he came in? Low HCP? College/elite? More average golfer? 

2. As a teacher, what did GEARS do for you in this lesson? I'm thinking some or all of the problems would have also been evident on video, maybe even without video. Maybe you make an initial tentative "diagnosis" by eye or video, and then use GEARS to establish what the primary problem is or the cause or whatever? In other words, I am wondering about your diagnostic process and how GEARS fits into it. 

JP Bouffard

"I cut a little driver in there." -- Jim Murray

Driver: Titleist 915 D3, ACCRA Shaft 9.5*.
3W: Callaway XR,
3,4 Hybrid: Taylor Made RBZ Rescue Tour, Oban shaft.
Irons: 5-GW: Mizuno JPX800, Aerotech Steelfiber 95 shafts, S flex.
Wedges: Titleist Vokey SM5 56 degree, M grind
Putter: Edel Custom Pixel Insert 

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4 hours ago, Big Lex said:

Thanks....yes I was speaking of the blue/gold ones. So this was in a single lesson, giving the player 2 things to work on. That must be gratifying for both of you.

I don't know about "gratifying" but… it's a lesson. This was a guy who helps me rate courses for the WPGA, so it was a freebie as thanks, so I wanted to give him a bit more as he probably hasn't taken a lesson since he took one with us ten years ago.

4 hours ago, Big Lex said:

1. How good was the player when he came in? Low HCP? College/elite? More average golfer?

He's a 1.8. He's late 50s, maybe 60?

He's won some city championships, has been as low as a +1 or so. Has always been a picker, go figure… he's never really forward much.

4 hours ago, Big Lex said:

2. As a teacher, what did GEARS do for you in this lesson?

Measure everything, to the tenth of an inch.

4 hours ago, Big Lex said:

I'm thinking some or all of the problems would have also been evident on video, maybe even without video.

Maybe. But the hips aren't circles, either, they're ovals, so you have no "real" idea what the center of the hips are doing, nor do you have tenth-of-an-inch (actually greater, but it rounds to that) accuracy.

Nor, more importantly, can the student see that he truly didn't do it "enough" instead of just relying on your word.

4 hours ago, Big Lex said:

Maybe you make an initial tentative "diagnosis" by eye or video, and then use GEARS to establish what the primary problem is or the cause or whatever? In other words, I am wondering about your diagnostic process and how GEARS fits into it. 

Well, we started in GEARS, because he's a good player, and these tend to be smaller movements.

Plus, when I'm telling him things like:

  • "See your hips turned 8° more, so your shoulders turned 9° more"
  • "Your pelvis thrust was only 0.3" there instead of 2.1!"
  • "Here's where your reach your maximum sway, right here."

Accuracy and having actual real values matters.

I think I've said it before, and this isn't the topic for general GEARS conversations (I may move these posts), but the GEARS measures everything, so the students begin saying "nope, not enough" or "well, that feel didn't work" and so on. Plus we can pretty quickly see if what they're doing is negatively (or positively) affecting something else. This guy gained several MPH in clubhead speed, for example.

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instructor Development, 5 Simple Keys®/Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins • Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 • "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 • Penn-State Behrend Head Coach • • • • • • • • • • :aimpoint: :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | 5SK.com | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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Thanks for the explanation. 

FWIW, and knowing that my experimentation is fraught with danger and that what you taught him might not be applicable to me, or that I have other serious issues to address before worrying about these points, etc. etc... I got on my simulator and tried making some swings with the feels you advised for this player. Feeling my tailbone move gently/slightly left during the point in the backswing when my left arm was parallel to the ground, and trying to think of the hips turning around the center of my pelvis, rather than around an axis closer to my right hip socket. 

This immediately moved my low point forward, and therefore many strikes felt more solid. But on the launch monitor, it changed my path, which had been between 1-4 degrees in out, to about 4-8 degrees in to out. 

I was probably overdoing it, or doing it wrong, or doing something different than what I thought I was doing. But I think it was at least helpful to do something which gave me the feel of what it's like to truly have your weight forward. 

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JP Bouffard

"I cut a little driver in there." -- Jim Murray

Driver: Titleist 915 D3, ACCRA Shaft 9.5*.
3W: Callaway XR,
3,4 Hybrid: Taylor Made RBZ Rescue Tour, Oban shaft.
Irons: 5-GW: Mizuno JPX800, Aerotech Steelfiber 95 shafts, S flex.
Wedges: Titleist Vokey SM5 56 degree, M grind
Putter: Edel Custom Pixel Insert 

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