The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[Zeph]

I don't know if they define a number, but 4º has been thrown around, so I used it in this graphic. The swing path can be square to the target line and you still hitting a push-draw since the club will be moving out if you hit it before lowpoint. But the shot will be closer to square I think, the amount of in-out angle 4 inches before the lowpoint with a square swing path is probably not too much. So if you add a couple of degrees to that with in-out swing, you could end up at around 4º in-out at impact.

You can look at the divots to see where they point, and you can look at the ball flight. If you align parallel to the target line, swing in-out with an open clubface, ball lands at the target, but curved a lot through the air, you are maybe swinging too much in-out, perhaps because of a flat swing plane. If the ball doesn't move a lot in the air, everything is probably good.

The more you swing in-out, the harder it will be to hit a fade I believe. It takes some practice to get used to the view of a very open clubface at address, and being able to keep it open through the swing. More sidespin also cause more distance loss and it's harder to control in the wind. An ideal trajectory in my opinion is a ball moving around 5-10 yards right to left. Enough that you get a predictable ball trajectory, but not so much that you lose distance, struggle in the wind and have a hard time fading the ball.

[LankyLefty]

I took a lesson recently where although he didn't call it "Stack & Tilt" my instructor basically taught be a stack and tilt backswing. He didn't put it the way they do in the videos and books but the end result is, head stays in one spot, inclination to the ground stays the same, shoulders turn and hips close a bit, weight stays forward ect. ect. He just called it a good back swing, which is why I dont get why so many people hate on S & T when half of them use principles of it without even knowing it....

Anyway, my problem since that lesson has been an open club face at impact I'm assuming that is because the way I grip the club on my old outside to in Swing no longer squares the clubface at contact, Ive tried a few differant grips but I cant seem to find a neutral ground between too open and too closed.

Are there any ground rules or things to look for as to the grip or other possible reasons my clubface might be open at Impact?

[MiniBlueDragon]

Thanks Zeph. My primary ball flight with the old irons was always a straight push shot which I tried to correct adjusting my grip to close the face more at address. I then found out that the toe on the clubs was heavier than heel which caused the face to remain open at impact so I traded them in for new irons. My new irons close a lot more at impact which is perfect, however the swing path seems to be an arbitrary angle depending on the shot; sometimes the ball's 10 yard left, sometimes 10 yards right and sometimes arrow straight or anywhere in between. What I'm trying to do is establish a "go to" angle that I can draw on my ball coupled with the target/putting line I use to give me a single consistent shot when needed. Kinda like a "go to" club I guess. @LankyLefty Sounds like you're having the same issue I had. Here's a thread where i was talking to iacas about the same thing. Helped me a lot just adding a little palmar flexion in the left wrist before the backswing. http://thesandtrap.com/forum/thread/46237/hogan-s-secret-hinged-left-wrist

[LankyLefty]

Ahh thank you, that makes sense to me now. I was doing the opposite thing with my old swing to avoid a pull I just didnt realize it and now with a strait(ish) swing that is opening my face.

EDIT: Whoever posted that shot of Dustin Johnson and the other guy is genius! I was doing what the other dude was doing when I should have been more neutral. Such and easy fix too.

[Ringworld]

so basically S&T; sets you up at address as you would be upon follow through?

[LankyLefty]

From my understanding its more like you would be at contact then anything else but really neither as at contact your shoulder are going to be a we bit more open and your hips should be sliding forward towards your target. The address from what Ive seen is maybe the least important aspect because if at the top of the backswing and starting the downswing you are in the right spot It doesn't matter a whole lot how you got their so long as you can repeat it.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

Question: What is the prescribed angle of swing path compared to the target? If the left arm goes back 20 degrees from the target line, should the swing forward also be 20 degrees from the target line or should it be less? My gut feeling is that it should be closer to 10 degrees but I wanted to ask as I'm debating about adding an extra "swing path" line to my golf balls to give me something to swing along if possible.

a) I don't think a line on the golf ball is going to matter one teeny tiny bit.

b) is this the angle you're talking about (the difference between the feet/target line and the left/right arm angles)? Note that any numbers you'd get from these lines would be pointless.

Originally Posted by Ringworld

so basically S&T; sets you up at address as you would be upon follow through?

I don't understand what you're asking.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Ringworld

so basically S&T; sets you up at address as you would be upon follow through?

Are you talking about weight?  It's 50/50 or 55/45 forward

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by iacas

a) I don't think a line on the golf ball is going to matter one teeny tiny bit.

b) is this the angle you're talking about (the difference between the feet/target line and the left/right arm angles)? Note that any numbers you'd get from these lines would be pointless.

No, I think my initial question confused things as I tied the arm angle into swing plane for some reason.

What I meant was if I use a putting line on half of my ball to line up putts, would it be worth doing likewise on the other side of the ball but for my full swing. For example:

The question was in relation to the angle that the swing plane line should be at when compared to the target line. On the example above it's about 25 degrees.

I'm just thinking an actual reminder on the ball may be more beneficial than the thought "swing out"

[Zeph]

25º is way too much. The ideal angle is so small you would hardly be able to draw it on a ball. If such a visual aid helps, more power to you, but I would focus more on doing the right things that cause an in-out path rather than trying to force it. You don't swing in-out because you think about it or because you really want to. You do because the weight is moving forward, the hands come from a deep position and the upper body stays still.

If you got a somewhat consistent swing, the swing path will be pretty similar on all shots. A smallchange in clubface angle can however be the difference between a push-draw, push and pull-draw. I doubt you are swinging so different on each swing that one is very much in-out and the other out-in. If so, you need to work some more on the basics of S&T;, not trying to force it. If your swing path is consistent, work on keeping the clubface square to the plane longer, prevent rolling the arms.

When I was swinging over the top last year, I could want to swing out to the right all I wanted all day long, but I would never get it right with the wrong movement.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by Zeph

25º is way too much. The ideal angle is so small you would hardly be able to draw it on a ball. If such a visual aid helps, more power to you, but I would focus more on doing the right things that cause an in-out path rather than trying to force it. You don't swing in-out because you think about it or because you really want to. You do because the weight is moving forward, the hands come from a deep position and the upper body stays still.

If you got a somewhat consistent swing, the swing path will be pretty similar on all shots. A smallchange in clubface angle can however be the difference between a push-draw, push and pull-draw. I doubt you are swinging so different on each swing that one is very much in-out and the other out-in. If so, you need to work some more on the basics of S&T;, not trying to force it. If your swing path is consistent, work on keeping the clubface square to the plane longer, prevent rolling the arms.

When I was swinging over the top last year, I could want to swing out to the right all I wanted all day long, but I would never get it right with the wrong movement.

Yeah 25 degrees is the angle my ball marker has by default, hence the request for the "correct" angle if there is such a thing.

It could just be that I'm over-analysing it though. More or less my shots are either straight or with a soft draw. Every now and then a push sneaks it's way in or I try to hit the ball too hard and I end up with an out-to-in path and slice it but generally the swing is ok; I'm just trying to make sure it stays ok and getting obsessive about it.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

I'm just thinking an actual reminder on the ball may be more beneficial than the thought "swing out"

I wouldn't do that.

Not only does that seem to encourage the clubhead to go back inside when it's far more important that your hands go back on the plane, but the plane is a plane and we trace a circle on the plane. The visual equivalent is often a straight line, but again, that's for the hands, not the ball.

Also, you don't want to feel that you're "swinging out." The way to swing out properly is to take the hands in .

Weight forward.

Shoulder down.

Hands in.

Straight arms.
Tuck butt.

Originally Posted by Zeph

If you got a somewhat consistent swing, the swing path will be pretty similar on all shots.

I will just say that anyone and everyone who breaks 100 has an incredibly "consistent" swing. You could put them side by side on video and they'd look virtually the same.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by iacas

I wouldn't do that.

Not only does that seem to encourage the clubhead to go back inside when it's far more important that your hands go back on the plane, but the plane is a plane and we trace a circle on the plane. The visual equivalent is often a straight line, but again, that's for the hands, not the ball.

Also, you don't want to feel that you're "swinging out." The way to swing out properly is to take the hands in.

Weight forward.

Shoulder down.

Hands in.

Straight arms.

Tuck butt.

Ah so that could be where I'm going wrong then. For some reason I have it in my head that I need to actively work on making sure the path is outward. Maybe I'll try letting the path dictate itself.

I already happily do weight forward, shoulder down, hands in, straight arms but I've never worked on the Tuck butt. Could be that's why my follow through always feels wrong and where I could be losing power. Yesterday I clocked my PW at 120ish, 6i at 160ish and 4i at 180ish on the first bounce, however those figures are subject to me using the range markers which may well be wrong. I just feel like I can get more out of the swing; like I'm not putting enough effort into it.

Methinks it may well be time for me to book myself another lesson and consult the DVD's again.

[Zeph]

Videos from both FO and DTL would help.

[saevel25]

What do you mean by shoulder down, if this is set up, do you mean the right shoudler for a right handed player? If so, wouldn't that promote the weight to be more towards the backside since that promotes tilting to the right.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by saevel25

What do you mean by shoulder down, if this is set up, do you mean the right shoudler for a right handed player? If so, wouldn't that promote the weight to be more towards the backside since that promotes tilting to the right.

On the backswing. Left shoulder down.

Please just go buy the book.

[nevets88]

I tried SnT on my own and for me it did't work out. Lessons are the way to go, online or in person. The official and affiliated with official instructors are very good.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by Zeph

Videos from both FO and DTL would help.

Yep definitely. Providing she's in a reasonable mood tomorrow I'll ask the wife nicely if she'll come and video my swing for an hour at the local course.