The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[Dr_Fu_Manchu]

By deflected you mean a straight draw or even a pull draw? Or do you mean a push-overdraw? Different fixes, so you'll want to be careful there.

The miss is a straight shot with a draw at the end. A smaller percentage of them are push over draws. I've tried to correct it by opening the face more, but that hasn't remedied the miss. I know a video is best, but I'm on vacation without a camera

[threejack]

The way I see it is much like the first post, if it didn't have a name it would be just someones swing and nobody would even think twice about it. If you look at it, theres not much of a difference when comparing it to other swings. Its very similar to a one-plane swing if you ask me, I haven't seen anybody hate on a one plane swing, that would mean you hate Rory's (gorgeous) swing. I like the idea of the stack and tilt. My swing currently is a one plane, if i kept my weight above my left leg then I would probably be considered stacked.

The trouble I've had with it is getting my weight past my left leg rather than stacked on top.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by Dr_Fu_Manchu

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

By deflected you mean a straight draw or even a pull draw? Or do you mean a push-overdraw? Different fixes, so you'll want to be careful there.

The miss is a straight shot with a draw at the end. A smaller percentage of them are push over draws. I've tried to correct it by opening the face more, but that hasn't remedied the miss. I know a video is best, but I'm on vacation without a camera

Push your hips more forward.

[johnclayton1982]

Interesting thread.  After reading it, I have a few questions.

1.  Could someone post a link to somewhere where someone explains the correct ball flight laws?  Is the statement in the S&T; book correct?

2.  I am now an S&T; fan, having improved my game tremendously by keeping my weight on my left and dropping my shoulder.  I used to be a chronic slicer, and tried the fixes in the book, and they worked really well.  Especially the "more weight on the left foot" one - when I hit a pitching wedge, I have my weight almost even, 7 iron 55/45, and 3 wood like 90/10 at address.  As the clubs get longer, I have to move more weight forward to eliminate a slice.  It is working great actually, culminating in breaking 80 twice since working with S&T; (was a mid-80s player before).  Two questions on this:

a.  Why does moving your weight forward at address help to cure a slice?

b.  Can you over do it?  If so, what are the consequences.  It feels like, with my 3 wood, I move as much weight as possible.  This allows me to straighten my right leg and really let loose into the ball hard.  Is there a worry of going too far?

3.  How does grip play into this? I went to a PGA Pro who attempted to cure my slice by giving me a much stronger grip.  This didn't work for me - I hit alot of shots left that looked like foul ball line drives in baseball.  Is this because clubface doesn't cause slice, so grip change doesn't help?  It really hurt me in the short game, where the stronger grip made most of my wedge shots go way left.

Additionally, I took a 2nd look at S&t; after reading "The Timeless Swing" by Tom Watson.  As I read it, I realized almost everything he was saying were S&T; fundamentals.  Virtually everything - left shoulder down, no weight shift on backswing and weight shift forward on downswing, hip slide, spine angle... it was very similar, and "The Timeless Swing" has alot of full-color pictures and cool drills.  I recommend it if you are working with S&T; (hopefully I am correct in the similarities between the two.... they seem like almost the same book... and when I watched Tom on some Youtube clips, it looks like an S&T; swing without a full straightening of the right leg).  I like the book, even though I know Watson probably didn't write any of it.  So those of you who are looking for a full-pictures, "lite" version of S&T;, "The Timeless Swing" helped me a whole lot (his "goalposts" aiming method is pretty awesome).

[jamo]

1.  Could someone post a link to somewhere where someone explains the correct ball flight laws?

http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

a.  Why does moving your weight forward at address help to cure a slice?

b.  Can you over do it?  If so, what are the consequences.  It feels like, with my 3 wood, I move as much weight as possible.  This allows me to straighten my right leg and really let loose into the ball hard.  Is there a worry of going too far?

Check out this video:

Answer to question A: Because having more weight forward allows the golfer to have an inside out swing path, which is necessary to be able to hit a push-draw.

Answer to question B: You can do anything in golf "too much." You can have "too much shaft lean," "too much weight forward too soon," stuff like that. It may feel like you're 90-10 with your 3-wood, but if the ballflight is great then you're doing something right. But players who hit straight slices for example, leaving their weight back, flipping like crazy -- these players need to feel like they are "over doing it" because when they actually swing the club, that feeling of over-doing is very usually much, much less than they think they are doing. That's why using slow motion video is critical towards being able to understand what you are feeling actually does to your swing.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

"too much weight forward too soon,"

This is probably a poor example since so few people do this one....I was typing pretty fast though. But yea, you can do pretty much anything in this game "too much." Just wanted to clarify.

[mvmac]

Two questions on this:

a.  Why does moving your weight forward at address help to cure a slice?

b.  Can you over do it?  If so, what are the consequences.  It feels like, with my 3 wood, I move as much weight as possible.  This allows me to straighten my right leg and really let loose into the ball hard.  Is there a worry of going too far?

Jetfan's answer sums it up. This is a good visual. This where understanding the geometry is really important [VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MRCgj_62lY&feature;=channel_video_title[/VIDEO] Like Jetfan said , yes it can be overdone. We basically want to stay centered on the backswing. Some, if not most feel more weight on their forward foot, but most of the time it's slightly left, centered. It's a gradual shift forward. My son struggled with this for a couple months getting too much weight forward too fast. What tends to happen is that the upper center, sternum/head, tip back to compensate. When we tip back, we compromise low point control and the path is too far out to the right, overdraws. [quote name="johnclayton1982" url="/t/53958/why-understanding-the-ball-flight-laws-is-important/108#post_658493"]How does grip play into this? I went to a PGA Pro who attempted to cure my slice by giving me a much stronger grip.  This didn't work for me - I hit alot of shots left that looked like foul ball line drives in baseball.  Is this because clubface doesn't cause slice, so grip change doesn't help?  It really hurt me in the short game, where the stronger grip made most of my wedge shots go way left.[/quote] So making it stronger can help someone draw it because it helps keep the face square to the arc on the backswing (P2). "Weak" grips can promote the face to be too open at P2. I see this with guys that hit straight pushes. But a grip change won't cure a slice, gotta change the path. That pro might be understood the assumption of the incorrect ball flight laws, need to have a face pointed left to draw, "closed" face. [quote name="JetFan1983" url="/t/53958/why-understanding-the-ball-flight-laws-is-important/108#post_658513"]

This is probably a poor example since so few people do this one....I was typing pretty fast though. But yea, you can do pretty much anything in this game "too much." Just wanted to clarify.

[/quote] Saying "too soon" is correct because it's all about doing it at the correct rate. Yes most players are not going to struggle with this but it's important to understand the entire spectrum so we know what is acceptable :-)

[JetFan1983]

Quote from Mike:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

This is probably a poor example since so few people do this one....I was typing pretty fast though. But yea, you can do pretty much anything in this game "too much." Just wanted to clarify.

Saying "too soon" is correct because it's all about doing it at the correct rate. Yes most players are not going to struggle with this but it's important to understand the entire spectrum so we know what is acceptable

Ahhh, okay. Had I known your son struggled with that, I wouldn't have made that follow-up post.

And thanks for posting that other S&TAcademy; video. It illustrates the point a lot clearer in reference to John's question.

And while I'm typing, I just wanted to address this one again with one more comment:

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

a.  Why does moving your weight forward at address help to cure a slice?

Putting your hips slightly more forward at address, or putting more weight forward at address means you don't have to slide or shift as much weight forward during the actual swing. You still have to slide or shift, but you don't have to do it as quickly or as much. Good players who tend to sway back a little too much have learned over time to shift their weight on the downswing very quickly and for a longer period of time. Poor players who shift back too much don't understand how quickly or for how long they have to push forward now, and as a result, they cut across it and have an erratic low point.

[mvmac]

Ahhh, okay. Had I known your son struggled with that, I wouldn't have made that follow-up post.

You always share great info, keep it up!

[michaeljames92]

Leaning the shaft forward, weight forward both allow you to draw the ball because your swing bottom is more forward of the ball and can hit the backside of the arc. i.e. path is still out towards the right instead of left. Just thought I'd add that for people who don't know...

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Ahhh, okay. Had I known your son struggled with that, I wouldn't have made that follow-up post.

And thanks for posting that other S&TAcademy; video. It illustrates the point a lot clearer in reference to John's question.

And while I'm typing, I just wanted to address this one again with one more comment:

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

a.  Why does moving your weight forward at address help to cure a slice?

Putting your hips slightly more forward at address, or putting more weight forward at address means you don't have to slide or shift as much weight forward during the actual swing. You still have to slide or shift, but you don't have to do it as quickly or as much. Good players who tend to sway back a little too much have learned over time to shift their weight on the downswing very quickly and for a longer period of time. Poor players who shift back too much don't understand how quickly or for how long they have to push forward now, and as a result, they cut across it and have an erratic low point.

[JetFan1983]

I was wondering what some of the basic component switches are from taking a standard push-draw stack and tilt pattern and converting it into a pull-fade pattern i.e. setup adjustments as well as swing adjustments.

Besides moving the ball more forward in the stance to impact the ball after the point of tangency, and keeping the clubface open relative to the path at impact, I'm not really sure what else to do. Obviously I don't want to intentionally leave my weight back and flip at it with a "full release" to get this shot shape but that's really the only way I can do it right now.

I do know that for this type of (for lack of a better term) better-player pull-fade ball flight the shoulders must turn more relative to the shoulder turn for the push-draw, with the clubhead appearing well below the shoulders on the through-swing from a DTL view. But what other important factors must occur to hit a well compressed slight pull-fade a lot of players use?

I'm not necessarily wanting to know this for the sake of using this ball flight myself, although it would be nice to practice it for fun sometimes. I was just wondering what the other various adjustments should be from the normal push-draw pattern I use.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Besides moving the ball more forward in the stance to impact the ball after the point of tangency, and keeping the clubface open relative to the path at impact, I'm not really sure what else to do.

You may want to move it slightly forward, but a ball at the most. You definitely don't want to hit the ball after the point of tangency. Not if it's on the ground. You just have to shift the base plane left enough that you're still hitting down - just not hitting down so much that it cancels out the "left" shift of the baseline.

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

I was wondering what some of the basic component switches are from taking a standard push-draw stack and tilt pattern and converting it into a pull-fade pattern i.e. setup adjustments as well as swing adjustments.

The simplest? Except for setting the clubface to point left of target (or more left than for a push-anything pattern) a little, you'd simply not take the left arm in as much. You could still do it on the backswing if you wanted but you'd then have to shift it out slightly on the downswing. Your exit would be lower and more to the left as well, because basically you'd just seek to shift the plane line from square to pointing left enough.

Shoulders slightly flatter would be likely to be in there somewhere too. Head can't really go forward (that's a push piece).

In other words, the same swing you see a lot of hackers use... just not as severe.

[JetFan1983]

Thanks, Erik. Always appreciated to be set in the right direction towards more understanding.

I typically have a flatter shaft angle on the backswing as well... would one steepen that slightly as well? Or could I just keep that as is.

Actually, maybe I'm misinterpreting "shaft angle" at the top of the backswing. Perhaps that's just forearm rolling. So I could be on the wrong track here.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Thanks, Erik. Always appreciated to be set in the right direction towards more understanding.

I typically have a flatter shaft angle on the backswing as well... would one steepen that slightly as well? Or could I just keep that as is.

Actually, maybe I'm misinterpreting "shaft angle" at the top of the backswing. Perhaps that's just forearm rolling. So I could be on the wrong track here.

It depends. The average hacker rolls the clubhead under the plane and re-routes it over the top on the downswing. You could do that. Or you could do Tiger's old move of taking it above the plane and leaving it there. What you wouldn't want to do is Rickie Fowler's move of going steep to shallow. You should either go "shallow to steep" or "steep both ways."

If you can visualize a plane - like Hogan's pane of glass - just turn the whole thing more to the left without changing your body. Then swing on that plane. Flatter shoulders, bit more lifting, hands not dragging "inside" as much (because the plane is farther "outside" on the backswing).

[JetFan1983]

OK. I understand this question is a bit more annoying to answer without me showing you specifics, so thanks for taking the time to do that. It's very helpful.

Since I've only had six total lessons with Steve Sieracki, we really only worked on some basic push-draw components, and lately I had been wondering what some of the adjustments could be to change the ball flight. Thanks for that.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

OK. I understand this question is a bit more annoying to answer without me showing you specifics, so thanks for taking the time to do that. It's very helpful.

Since I've only had six total lessons with Steve Sieracki, we really only worked on some basic push-draw components, and lately I had been wondering what some of the adjustments could be to change the ball flight. Thanks for that.

Aim a bit left and aim the face a good bit more right if you want to hit a push-fade. No changes to the swing. That's the easier way to hit a "fade" with the "S&T; Pattern."

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

OK. I understand this question is a bit more annoying to answer without me showing you specifics, so thanks for taking the time to do that. It's very helpful.

Since I've only had six total lessons with Steve Sieracki, we really only worked on some basic push-draw components, and lately I had been wondering what some of the adjustments could be to change the ball flight. Thanks for that.

Aim a bit left and aim the face a good bit more right if you want to hit a push-fade. No changes to the swing. That's the easier way to hit a "fade" with the "S&T; Pattern."

Heyyyyy, for once I actually do something correct based on "intuition." I've been doing this to get a push fade, but I wasn't 100% confident that this was enough. Thanks, Erik. Finally I'm on the right track with something

Knowing the ball flight laws was likely key in me making the correct set-up adjustments here too.

Yea, that's much easier for me to do to create a fade shape.