The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[mvmac]

That's basically how Jack, Freddy and Lee Trevino do it.  Aim way left with the feet and push cut it, obviously handle is forward.  I do what Erik mentioned, aim left, shoulders left, club face little more to the right, and exit is lower, handle doesn't "raise" as much.  Good way to feel it.

[Duhwinner]

could someone explain the wrist cock? P&B; say they want a vertical wrist cock right from the start.

It seems like that would be picking the club head up across the line sort of speak and is there no rotation just vertical ?

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by Duhwinner

P&B; say they want a vertical wrist cock right from the start.

Yea, it's gradual though, throughout the backswing.

Originally Posted by Duhwinner

It seems like that would be picking the club head up across the line sort of speak and is there no rotation just vertical ?

You mean forearm rotation? Obviously forearm rotation isn't wrist cock, so I apologize if I'm not following what you mean by rotation. The wrist can only cock up and down after all.

If you're referring to forearm rotation though, they don't like much at all from P1 to P2 and then after that it's good. Accumulator no.3 after all. Big power source. You just don't want to rotate the lead forearm right away and get the clubhead stuck behind your hands.

Sorry if this isn't what you're referring to.

[Duhwinner]

So forearm rotation is ok just after p2?

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by Duhwinner

So forearm rotation is ok just after p2?

Yea. I probably should just let Mike or Erik field this question. I'm currently learning the "why" to this piece myself actually.

But my understanding is that excess forearm rotation from P1 to P2 throws the club head behind your hands and opens the face dramatically, leading to compensations later.

Actually, I'm mainly posting this response so if I say something incorrect, the instructor will come on here and set us both straight on this topic. But my S&T; teacher usually has me have less forearm roll from P1 to P2 because I fan the face really open.

The picture they often use is of Rickie Fowler's takeaway. Is this what you're asking about? Check out this video to see if we're on the same page.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Duhwinner

could someone explain the wrist cock? P&B; say they want a vertical wrist cock right from the start.

It seems like that would be picking the club head up across the line sort of speak and is there no rotation just vertical ?

Like what Jetfan said, it's gradual.  Wrist don't just bend vertically but also side to side.  It's a combo of both.  Not something a lot of students have to worry about.  Rather than focus on the wrists I like to think about it like this, can just skip to about 2:10

This is also a good one to check out.  Mario talks about the right wrist JUST bending back but obviously there is some vertical hinging to line up the club head and hands at P2

Originally Posted by Duhwinner

So forearm rotation is ok just after p2?

Need some forearm rotation from P1-P2.  Most feel very limited.  Tendancy for a lot of players is to over load #3 accumulator, left forearm rotation, get the club head too low and inside the hands and they have to lift the arms from there.

Here's an example of club faces square to the arc, we swing on a tilted angle so don't want the clubhead to be "toe up" and also not the polar opposite either.

[Duhwinner]

Wow alot of good information there, hadnt seen any of those videos. Did I hear David Orr correct at the very end of video he said if you set up at impact with hands ahead then you already have correct wrist bend  and shouldnt be doing much with them on the back swing? Thats pretty much the SnT set up hand position isnt it?

Thanks Guys

[outlaw1984]

I've been playing golf since July, and have been playing 2-3 times a week, i've embarrasingly lost like 1000 golf balls in the woods....took lessons and it still hasnt helped.....im wondering if the stack and tilt is for me, or do i need to go to drawing board as far hogan and penick?????

i have the dvds and the book but have the fear from switching to it, due to the fact that someone said it will cause chronic back pain......also people saying its a hoax....can someone fill me in on it?????

Thanks

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by outlaw1984

I've been playing golf since July, and have been playing 2-3 times a week, i've embarrasingly lost like 1000 golf balls in the woods....took lessons and it still hasnt helped.....im wondering if the stack and tilt is for me, or do i need to go to drawing board as far hogan and penick?????

i have the dvds and the book but have the fear from switching to it, due to the fact that someone said it will cause chronic back pain......also people saying its a hoax....can someone fill me in on it?????

Thanks

LOL yeah S&T; gets a bad rap and a lot of bad information out there about what it is.  It all comes from people that have never spent time with a S&T; instructor or watched the DVDs.  It's not some crazy radical swing as some try to make it, lots of pros have a S&Tish; swing that have never even talked to Andy and Mike.  S&T; is just a centered pivot, not moving the head and turning your shoulders on an incline plane at a 90* angle to your spine at set-up.  I've been around this information for a few years and implementing some of these pieces has only HELPED students relieve back pain.  Never heard of a player getting more hurt.  The 10 players on tour that have been getting taught by Andy and Mike for several years don't miss tournament due to injury.

Check these out, gets into the basic ideas

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by outlaw1984

I've been playing golf since July, and have been playing 2-3 times a week, i've embarrasingly lost like 1000 golf balls in the woods....took lessons and it still hasnt helped.....im wondering if the stack and tilt is for me, or do i need to go to drawing board as far hogan and penick?????

i have the dvds and the book but have the fear from switching to it, due to the fact that someone said it will cause chronic back pain......also people saying its a hoax....can someone fill me in on it?????

Thanks

S&T; does not cause chronic back pain and it is not a hoax.  You have the book and the DVDs so I suggest that you start there and get a basic understanding of the system... from there I would seek out instruction from somebody who understands the pattern, whether that be in your local area or online (check out evolvr by the Golf Evolution).

[mvmac]

Couple pics to consider

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Who's the S&T; guy?

The ones wearing visors?  I kid.

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

S&T; does not cause chronic back pain and it is not a hoax.  You have the book and the DVDs so I suggest that you start there and get a basic understanding of the system... from there I would seek out instruction from somebody who understands the pattern, whether that be in your local area or online (check out evolvr by the Golf Evolution).

Tristan's right here.  Any golf swing will cause back pain if done incorrectly and if you are not healthy to begin with.  You need to be able to tilt and bend appropriately and then you need to learn to not stay in flexion so long.  My back feels much better after getting the hips forward and jumping some.  The best thing for your spine and joints in general is light motion.  S&T; puts you through motions you don't do on a daily basis.  When done at a reasonable pace, how can this be bad for you?

[Schrodinger]

Have for three years tried to learn the S and T swing, but with very little success. My problem is that I have tinkered so much with every move and position etc that I can´t find a way back to my old swing. The old swing was not better, though, and this leaves me in a kind of  "no mans land" right now.

Some unsorted questions:

To me the result of the swing seems to rely very much on the timing of the bend in the left knee. The "crush the can move" has to be timed very exact to avoid fat or thin shots. When, how much, and at which part of the S&T; sequence should this be done …?

The "flying wedge drill" movie by Iacas seems to put a very large stress on the left knee. Is this really healthy …? Would you recommend this drill to a guy who has had several knee injuries (T.Woods for instance) …?

In the movie "flying wedge drill" by Nick Clearwater, he straightens his left knee and "tucks the butt" after he has hit the ball. Kind of the old school rolling of the right hand over the left in the follow-through ….or?

My S&T; shots go shorter and lower, ..why?

Uneven lies is very scary with my S&T.; Doing the move "formerly known as leaning left" on an uphill lie makes me dig in deep and fat, on a downhill lie it almost feels like falling to the ground. I have not been able to find any instruction on how to treat uneven lies with S&T;, maybe some one here knows, or..? It would be very interesting to watch a S&T; shot performed on a real golf course from an uneven lie.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by Schrodinger

Have for three years tried to learn the S and T swing, but with very little success.

Therein lies the problem. It is very difficult to self teach any method, let alone S&T.; On the one hand, the book and videos arm you with great information that really open your mind up to a whole new realm of ideas. But on the other hand, presuming you can teach it to yourself is a very big assumption.

Originally Posted by Schrodinger

My problem is that I have tinkered so much with every move and position etc that I can´t find a way back to my old swing.

Here's why it's so difficult to teach yourself. You are going off in ten different directions with no focus, no priorities, and no idea as to what your most glaring issue is. Under the guidance of an instructor, you will understand what your biggest faults are, how to attack them, and in what order. You've basically led yourself into the hedge maze with no map to get out of it.

Originally Posted by Schrodinger

My S&T; shots go shorter and lower, ..why?

Honestly, who the hell knows without seeing your swing on video? Here's how to do that BTW.

This is a bit of a tough love post. Obviously I respect you already for having read and studied the book and having an interest in the swing. But I just so often see people making this mistake that they can self-teach it. Good golf instructors dedicate their entire professional lives to understanding this game. Just to give an extreme analogy, this is sort of like someone who has a genuine interest in medicine, going out and buying some medical books, and then trying to perform surgery on himself. Suddenly a bunch of severed arteries start to bleed like crazy and he has no clue what he did or how to fix it. An actual surgeon would just shake their head over this.

Hopefully you live near one of these instructors . Trust me, just two or three lessons with one of these guys or their assistants will send you on a better path. After that, with the knowledge as to what your faults are, how you can fix them, and why, you can go back to self-teaching for a while until you hit another wall.

And if you don't live near any of these guys, a great low cost option is trying out evolvr . These guys are well versed in the pattern, even though they have knowledge of many different patterns outside of S&T.; It's obviously not going to be as good as one-on-one instruction, but they can at least pin point your issues and suggest the best drills and get you to understand why certain changes are necessary.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Schrodinger

To me the result of the swing seems to rely very much on the timing of the bend in the left knee. The "crush the can move" has to be timed very exact to avoid fat or thin shots. When, how much, and at which part of the S&T; sequence should this be done …?

I can tell you when and how much. But we've had people who need to feel the left knee never straightens and others we tell them to straighten it shortly after the start of their downswing. It's different for everyone, the feel, that is.

I disagree that it's a heavily "relied upon" piece. I can do everything else and never straighten the knee and hit shots just fine. They'll be lower and my divots will be a bit bigger but they'll be struck solidly.

Originally Posted by Schrodinger

The "flying wedge drill" movie by Iacas seems to put a very large stress on the left knee. Is this really healthy …? Would you recommend this drill to a guy who has had several knee injuries (T.Woods for instance) …?

It's fine. We've had people with knee replacements do the drill. Again, you have to be able to do it correctly. In my drill my knee doesn't really move much at all. I push my hips forward, leave them there, and swing my upper body. I'm conscious of my hands (the flying wedge) and that's it. Nick, as you noted, adds the "tuck the butt" piece, but I left it out of my video because I wanted to focus more on the wedge and weight (via the hips) AND because I knew Nick already had his video. :-)

Originally Posted by Schrodinger

In the movie "flying wedge drill" by Nick Clearwater, he straightens his left knee and "tucks the butt" after he has hit the ball. Kind of the old school rolling of the right hand over the left in the follow-through ….or?

He does it after because it's a good time to exaggerate it. If you feel like you do something "after" impact you'll invariably start to prepare and actually DO that move before impact.

Originally Posted by Schrodinger

My S&T; shots go shorter and lower, ..why?

I don't mean this to sound the way it might sound, but... "because you're not doing it properly?" We've never had a student lose distance. Period.

Originally Posted by Schrodinger

Uneven lies is very scary with my S&T.; Doing the move "formerly known as leaning left" on an uphill lie makes me dig in deep and fat, on a downhill lie it almost feels like falling to the ground. I have not been able to find any instruction on how to treat uneven lies with S&T;, maybe some one here knows, or..? It would be very interesting to watch a S&T; shot performed on a real golf course from an uneven lie.

The same way as you do with a "normal" swing.

You said "leaning left" but if that's what you're trying to do I think you're missing a good amount of the S&T; swing. There's no actual leaning left (towards the target) in an S&T; swing. The shoulders turn 90° so you're actually tilting or "leaning" towards the golf ball at the top of your backswing.

If you're actually leaning left, then yes, you can get steep divots, low point control issues, and a lower, shorter ball flight. Your head should remain centered, not start leaning forward.

Make a "My Swing" thread and people can help you. Or sign up for evolvr .

[chris3putt]

Hi! Have been following this thread with interest as I have recently been trying to put the fundamentals of Stack and Tilt into effect. While perusing some of your other threads, Erik. I came across the one entitled "the biggest secret - slide your hips TOWARD the target". To my fairly uninitiated eye, that seems to go hand in glove with the basics of S & T; the "butt tucked under" position which Mike and Andy detail in the follow through can only really be reached by sliding the hips forward, toward the target. Perhaps you and they are using different words to describe the same effect? Would appreciate your comments.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by chris3putt

Hi! Have been following this thread with interest as I have recently been trying to put the fundamentals of Stack and Tilt into effect. While perusing some of your other threads, Erik. I came across the one entitled "the biggest secret - slide your hips TOWARD the target". To my fairly uninitiated eye, that seems to go hand in glove with the basics of S & T; the "butt tucked under" position which Mike and Andy detail in the follow through can only really be reached by sliding the hips forward, toward the target. Perhaps you and they are using different words to describe the same effect? Would appreciate your comments.

Andy and Mike talk about sliding the hips http://www.golftipsmag.com/instruction/full-swing/lessons/four-moves-to-stack-a-tilt.html?start=2

The butt tuck is a followthrough piece.

[Schrodinger]

Thanks for answering my questions! I will consider to sign up with evolvr.