Flatter, Flatter, Flatter..... Why?

[MikeLowry5]

While fairly new to the game I have learned a lot about how the swing works in the last two months. Also as having played baseball all my life, spending countless hours studying swing mechanics it has allowed me to pick up on concepts about the golf swing as well.

My entire basis for asking this question is the amount of time the clubface is in the hitting zone. Not sure what you golfers call that range but I am sure you know what I am talking about. I would think that a steeper plane would allow you to keep the club in this zone longer however making it more likely to bottom out at the wrong time. Conversely a flatter swing plane would allow for a shallower divot yet decrease the amount of time the clubface is in the hitting zone.

As much as I think Colin Montgomerie is a D-Bag who loves to hear himself talk and blame others for his failures he does have a point when he says that the player with a flatter swing is good when he is on, but over a large sample size he is inconsistent.

My guess is that most handicapped players generally have a swing that is very steep to begin with producing the cut/slice starting out and teachers adopt the flatter mantra for everyone.

Am I off base here?

[verse214]

Jack Nicklaus talks about this in his book "Golf My Way" and he states that the reason why he swings so upright is because he believes that the club face stays "along the target line" for longer than a flatter swing. The face may stay closer to the target line in an upright swing but it really is on the target line the same amount of time as a flat swing (a quick instant).

Personally, I believe to each their own and the steepness/flatness of your swing is probably determined by your height as well as what muscles you feel comfortable swinging with.

We have had amazing ball strikers at both extremes with Nicklaus being the steep and Hogan being the flat

[RIduffer]

Yeah, the flat swing is kind of en vogue right now. I wonder how much of that can be attributed to golfers' admiration for Ben Hogan?

I took a lesson from a guy who said we (handicappers) should be trying to emulate Jim Furyk and Fred Couples instead. Their steep backswing and shallow downswing is basically the opposite of what we hackers do.

[wmiller]

I swing very vertical, due to back issues and my height (6'3"), and hit a very high draw. IMO, flat or vertical has little to do with ball flight, but club head (swing) path and face angle in relation to that path are more determining.

Or, then again, I may be full of it.

[MikeLowry5]

Yeah, the flat swing is kind of en vogue right now. I wonder how much of that can be attributed to golfers' admiration for Ben Hogan?

From watching videos Ben Hogan had a great looking, powerful swing however if I even think about getting that flat I want to spin out of my shoes.

Now my natural ball flight has been a draw with more shots being a push or a hook (duck hook with woods) so I am aware that my experience makes me want to get steeper however the club has to be in the zone longer on a steeper angle of attack. When I started playing I always joke with people that I don't want much out of golf, only to have a swing from the left side that looks like Fred Couples..... :) Couples swing = Golf's equivalent to Raffy Palmeiro and Will the Thrill

[wedge player]

i have an upright swing and when im on i feel like i could play pga tour events but when im off its bad and for me its hard to fade with a upright swing

[RIduffer]

Couples swing = Golf's equivalent to Raffy Palmeiro and Will the Thrill

Yes. I am not opposed to starting a thread where we just post Fred Couples swing videos and talk on and on about how buttery his tempo is.

[kleraudio]

Honestly your backswing doesnt matter at all, whatever is comfortable to you, AS LONG AS you drop into the slot on the downswing....

Everyone has a different takeaway, but ALL of them drop the club to the inside and go right into the slot......

So whatever is more comfortable for you is right..... just make sure you start down with your hips and everything should fall into place.

Jim

[iacas]

Honestly your backswing doesnt matter at all, whatever is comfortable to you, AS LONG AS you drop into the slot on the downswing....

That's the thing though - with a one-plane swing (nobody should swing flatter than that), there is no timing that "drop." With any two-plane swing, you drop it because you lift it, and it requires more timing and more movement.

I think that drop can add a little power, but not enough (for me) to justify the inconsistency it adds.

[Vance87]

I think a flatter swing is easier for the smaller guys to manage. I'm 5'8 and started with a vertical swing but I've adapted a flatter swing plane and it's helped me alot.

[MikeLowry5]

I think a flatter swing is easier for the smaller guys to manage. I'm 5'8 and started with a vertical swing but I've adapted a flatter swing plane and it's helped me alot.

Fred Couples and Jack are both 5'-10".

[MikeLowry5]

That's the thing though - with a one-plane swing (nobody should swing flatter than that), there is no timing that "drop." With any two-plane swing, you drop it because you lift it, and it requires more timing and more movement.

I'll have to look up one plane and two plane to get a better idea of what you are talking about when you say "drop".

[shortstop20]

I'll have to look up one plane and two plane to get a better idea of what you are talking about when you say "drop".

Two plane swings use a steeper plane on the backswing and a flatter plane on the downswing, hence the "dropping into the slot". A one plane swing uses the same plane for both the backswing and downswing.

[Leftygolfer]

There are more than one way to skin a cat or swing a golf club.

If you are shorter your swing is going to be naturally flatter because the ball will be farther from you to acomidate the length of the clubs (assuming you are using standard length clubs). I would think of this as the difference between swinging a wedge or a wood. I am around 6'2", I am going to have a more upright swing than someone who is 5'8" or even 5'10" assuming we have the same amount of foward tilt.

A good striker of the ball is a good striker of the ball. You can look flat or upright, it doesn't matter in the end as long as you hit it solid and are aiming for the shot that you want to hit and deliver the club in that way.

[david_wedzik]

Two plane swings use a steeper plane on the backswing and a flatter plane on the downswing, hence the "dropping into the slot". A one plane swing uses the same plane for both the backswing and downswing.

This is a somewhat confusing point honestly - technically when the plane goes from steeper backswing to flatter on the downswing (or viceversa...Craig Parry) it is just that - nothing more than a change of planes from back to down. Many have come to call this a "two plane" swing because the shaft occupies two different planes during the swing.

As far as naming them goes though, the one and two plane thing really came into vogue when Jim Hardy started classifying swings that way (honestly not sure if he was the first). By his definition a one plane swing is one in which, at the top, the left arm matches (or very closely mirrors) the plane of the shoulders (both on one, or the same, plane).....a two plane swing would be one in which the left arm plane at the top is steeper than the shoulder plane (two different planes). Hope this makes sense. Dave btw...Stack and Tilt would be classified as a one plane swing.

My entire basis for asking this question is the amount of time the clubface is in the hitting zone. I would think that a steeper plane would allow you to keep the club in this zone longer however making it more likely to bottom out at the wrong time. Conversely a flatter swing plane would allow for a shallower divot yet decrease the amount of time the clubface is in the hitting zone.

Don't get too caught up in flat/steep as they only define the ANGLE that the shaft is at and not the path - i.e. you can get flat and out to in or steep and in to out together (though many times the typical steep motion IS over the top or out to in which is where some confusion comes in).

Anyway...my point is more to your questions about the club being in the hitting zone longer. This is a bit of a myth really - the actual hitting zone is EXTREMELY SMALL and by trying to keep the club "in" that zone you fall into the trap of swinging too much along the line of the ball/flight. This is not only the slowest way to swing but it goes against all of the geometric principles of the swing itself. We play golf from the side of the ball bent over. That fact is precisely why the swing is an arc in shape (its not croquet) and the point of contact with the ball is only one very finite point on that arc. Before, and after, that point the club should be tracing the ARC - not traveling on a straight line trying to stay in a flat spot or a zone. Dave

[Rukus43]

I am 6'4", but I learned to have a very flat swing after reading Hogan's book, and also fighting a bad slice when I was just a beginner, a year and a half ago. My one purpose for my swing at that time was to NOT slice... I over did it and developed an extremely flat inside swing. I no longer slice but I had a heck of a time with pushing the ball straight right because my hands got stuck behind me. I then learned to find a happy medium. I am starting to really enjoy having a swing that allows me to hit consistently decent shots. I steepened my swing slightly and I don't start my hands so far inside.

[WUTiger]

Honestly your backswing doesnt matter at all, whatever is comfortable to you, AS LONG AS you drop into the slot on the downswing....

A couple of years ago, I went from a classic Nicklaus style upright swing to a flatter 3/4 swing. With the upright I tended to start overswinging at midseason, going over the top and other things.

Key thing: Does your backswing get you into a balanced position so that you can "drop it into the slot" and move with power through the ball?