Fitting Nightmare

[jpalermo]

  verse214 said:

Just a quick question: Are you SURE that you were fit correctly? How tall are you... a 4* change in lie is pretty drastic and it's possible that it's more of a needed swing change rather than an equipment change. Unless you're 6'3 or taller, I wouldn't take that fitting seriously.

I think that is backwards, short people are usually flatter and tall is usually upright. Or am I backwards?

[Shanks A Million]

  verse214 said:

Just a quick question: Are you SURE that you were fit correctly? How tall are you... a 4* change in lie is pretty drastic and it's possible that it's more of a needed swing change rather than an equipment change. Unless you're 6'3 or taller, I wouldn't take that fitting seriously.

I don't play Pings, I play Adams. I'm 6' tall, but my arm span is shorter than my height, and I have extremely broad shoulders (54"). I've had more than one golf pro tell me that my swing is more or less doomed to be steep. The dirt marks on my clubs also show about 3.5° of cant. The fitter had a hard time believeing I could hit the ball that well with such poorly fitted clubs, and he must have checked a dozen times to make sure it was correct. My hand/eye coordination is very acute (I'm autistic, but fairly mildly), and I can make changes to hit all sorts of clubs, I do it automatically. When I aim left of my target (where my mind sees the ball going), I always slice, and when I aim right, I always hook it. I've had at least a dozen golf pros jaws drop when they saw just how well such an ugly swing could hit the ball. Even I cannot believe how ugly my swing is, but I can't argue that it works. I can only imagine how much better I could play with fitted clubs.

[jpalermo]

Your shoulder width is 4 1/2 feet? When you take a divot is in deeper on the toe side or the heel side?

[Shanks A Million]

  jpalermo said:

Your shoulder width is 4 1/2 feet? When you take a divot is in deeper on the toe side or the heel side?

Yep, 4 and 1/2 feet around... pretty crazy, isn't it? 40" is a medium men's size! My mother is probably glad I was born Cesserian!

To answer your question, yes. My divots start with the toe entering first, then the heel entering about an inch later. The toe side is quite a bit deeper. The exit has the heel leaving first, with the toe then exiting about an inch later. I practice with two alignment sticks (you know, driveway markers?), and my divots point out to the right a touch, or straight. If I try to swing from the outside in to hit a cut, they go just slightly to the left. I'm a bit of a blocker. I spend a lot of time making sure I'm aimed correctly, with my feet aimed parallel and to the left of my target. 18th post... Isn't that number special in golf?

[jpalermo]

Thats definately a sign of needing a flatter lie angle. I have been fit 3x and Im glad Im 100% rack fit. Although ping told me blue dot. Good luck, I would still say to save up some more money and buy a decent set instead of spending what money you have and then wanting something better 6 months from now.

[sean_miller]

Shoulder width of 54" and shoulders 54" around is a huge difference in meaning. Like about 400lbs difference.

Anyway, don't expect to find what you need on Ebay. Most lofts and lies are standard, and based on experience, I'd say Hogans are a tad on the flat side - lie-wise.

Experience also tells me that Mizuno and Ram (e.g. vintage Ram Tour Grinds) are a bit more upright. Good luck finding Mizunos for $100 that aren't trashed.

[Leftygolfer]

The best deals I have seen are for bridgestone irons. They are going for 200 or 220.

[Shanks A Million]

Well, I'm probably going to wait a bit longer to get a larger budget together. Anything forged will work, they can be bent. There's some nice older Nike forged pro combo irons for sale that are blades in the short irons that go to cavities in the long ones. I don't particularly like Nike, but these seem like a good deal, barely used for about $150.

I've also been working on flattening out my swing some more, but even an extreme change will likely only mean 1-1.5°. It has helped innumerably, but the toe still digs. I practice every day, so I know my swing pretty well, and on a good day, the clubs seem fine, but on bad day, that toe dig makes enough difference to really cause trouble, big sweeping push-fades, shap hooks, uncomfortable attempts to flatten the swing out and flailing like a maniac. If it gets really bad, I may even shoot into the high 90s to low 100s. I do want a club that's going to give me maximum effectiveness on my bad days.

[verse214]

  jpalermo said:

Thats definately a sign of needing a flatter lie angle. I have been fit 3x and Im glad Im 100% rack fit. Although ping told me blue dot. Good luck, I would still say to save up some more money and buy a decent set instead of spending what money you have and then wanting something better 6 months from now.

If he's toe down at impact and if the fitter says he is 4* too

flat ... it means he needs to go upright not flat

[jamo]

  Shanks A Million said:

Well, I'm probably going to wait a bit longer to get a larger budget together. Anything forged will work, they can be bent. There's some nice older Nike forged pro combo irons for sale that are blades in the short irons that go to cavities in the long ones. I don't particularly like Nike, but these seem like a good deal, barely used for about $150.

The Nike Pro Combos are, like the Hogans, very underrated. They're probably the best Nike irons ever made. Some tour players ever still play the Pro Combo long irons because they are so forgiving.

  Shanks A Million said:

I've also been working on flattening out my swing some more, but even an extreme change will likely only mean 1-1.5°. It has helped innumerably, but the toe still digs. I practice every day, so I know my swing pretty well, and on a good day, the clubs seem fine, but on bad day, that toe dig makes enough difference to really cause trouble, big sweeping push-fades, shap hooks, uncomfortable attempts to flatten the swing out and flailing like a maniac. If it gets really bad, I may even shoot into the high 90s to low 100s. I do want a club that's going to give me maximum effectiveness on my bad days.

I wouldn't worry about changing your swing. You can only play with the body you're given, you might as well make the most of it. Though if you think you aren't making the most of it, by all means make the changes.

[Shanks A Million]

  verse214 said:

If he's toe down at impact and if the fitter says he is 4* too

Who said flat? I need upright!

  jamo said:

I wouldn't worry about changing your swing. You can only play with the body you're given, you might as well make the most of it. Though if you think you aren't making the most of it, by all means make the changes.

That's the million dollar question right there. What's flawed, the body, or the clubs? I read Wishon's book about club fitting, and he said it's never good to try to fit your clubs, they should always fit you. Now, I've been pondering this same point a lot lately. No matter how hard I try to flatten, the change is small at best, and even a few days of play will cause it to go upright again. My body is not a work of art, but it's all I have, so I think it's best to let it be and make the clubs fit.

[jpalermo]

  verse214 said:

If he's toe down at impact and if the fitter says he is 4* too

My bad I thought I had that backwards.

[verse214]

  Shanks A Million said:

That's

Why don't you post a quick video of your swing. Most of the time, it's the swing and not the equipment. A few degrees of lie difference will not ruin your game no matter how you look at it and if you didn't notice it before, there's no reason to freak out about it now.

Also, the individual who made the comment about Miz's: Mizuno irons are generally flatter than standard, not more upright. You usually have to bend 1* upright to meet the "standard" for american OEMs.

[sean_miller]

  verse214 said:

. . . Mizuno irons are generally flatter than standard, not more upright. You usually have to bend 1* upright to meet the "standard" for american OEMs.

I guess my experience with Mizunos is different. I'm 6' 2" tall and always fought with the short irons in my early 90s Mizuno blades (everything left)- until this summer when I had the lies flattened.

Now that I think about it, they may have simply adjusted my old blades to current Mizuno specs?!?!

[Shanks A Million]

  verse214 said:

Why don't you post a quick video of your swing. Most of the time, it's the swing and not the equipment. A few degrees of lie difference will not ruin your game no matter how you look at it and if you didn't notice it before, there's no reason to freak out about it now.

It's not just now I've noticed, it's only now that I've actually tried out some properly fitted clubs. 4 degrees of difference is huge in a golf club. My swing is good enough, it's steep, but that's the way I'm built. My swing is ugly, there's no doubt about it, but it works. I make pure contact most of the time, even with long irons. I stand over a 3 iron and

expect to hit it pure, nothing less will do. I'm pretty anal about that. I've had multiple golf instructors and fitters, after monitoring my swing on a simulator, tell me that it's my equipment.

[Shanks A Million]

I'ts perhaps best to clarify something. I've played for little over 20 years, but just casually. A year ago, I couldn't hope to break 120 on a good day. Then I got serious, and now I practice every day. I now am pissed not to break 90 on a PGA tour course. Most of it is my putting. My putting is exceptional, nearly to the caliber of lower ranked tour pros. I hit my current clubs great, mostly pure and straight. I'd like to be scratch within the next year or two.

My issue is none of that, my issue is more about feel. Hitting my clubs feels unnatural and impure. I never knew just how much until I tried fitted clubs. They were amazing! Some may say fix your swing, but do you tell a man with big feet that he should wear size 8s? Everyone is built differently, and I'm within the "extreme" range of build. Off the rack clubs are all like size M suits, they may be beautiful wool and hand made, but if they don't fit me , then why wear them? Even the tour pros get their clubs fitted to their swings. No one here is saying Tiger should check his swing, even though he plays clubs 2° upright. I don't want to get a huge improvement through fitting, I want a club that fits me!

[sean_miller]

  Shanks A Million said:

I'ts perhaps best to clarify something. I've played for little over 20 years, but just casually. A year ago, I couldn't hope to break 120 on a good day. Then I got serious, and now I practice every day. I now am

You go girl!!

Sorry, I got swept up in the emotion. ISn't getting your swing checked part of the process of clubfitting? Any self respecting clubfitter would want to see you take a couple passes at a golf ball rather than simply take static measurements - wouldn't they?

[Shanks A Million]

  sean_miller said:

You go girl!!

Yes, he spent about an hour with me, evaluating ball strike, ball flight, etc. He said my ballstriking was highly consistant, and reccomended moving away from GI clubs to players clubs, and to avoid all shafts less than stiff. The interesting part is, that I have indeed worked at flattening out my swing. I can swing a club about 1.5° upright if I want, or I can swing one 5° upright. I work tirelessly on flattening my swing, and in the past few days have worked really hard to fix my last two problems facing scratch, FW woods, and 20-60 yard pitches. I finally got the fairway woods to fly long and high (I was frozen, but sooooo happy!!!) Read my FW post for info on how I broke the habit.

I hardly ever play my "stock shot" (push-draw). I work the ball. I love to hit the high cut, but my absolute favorite shot is the moonball. I practice teeing my driver about 3" off the ground, and just ripping it into the clouds. When the wind is behind you, you can reach 300 yards with that shot. A well struck drive for me goes about 280, but my on center hit percentage with the driver is not very great (I'm working with it a lot to rectify that, and going to have it cut a bit shorter)