What can clubface angle/swing path tell us?

[RIduffer]

Most of this information is new to me, but I have a practical question. If we look at the most common swing fault among amateurs, slicing the ball, what is the diagnosis based on this information?

Most slicers seem to think that coming OTT is causing a slice. But I can say from experience that swinging inside out does not automatically cure a slice if the clubface is not squaring up through impact. Given the choice, slicers will always choose a pull slice over a push slice, and swing OTT out of neccessity.

As someone mentioned, closing the clubface doesn't always help either. Setting up with the face shut or using an off-set driver might reduce the problem, but most will continue to slice to some degree.

I'm guessing that clubface and swingpath problems combine to create a slice, and then the slicer starts to make ill-advised compensations, making matters worse. Can someone explain to me how this information might help us better understand this ballflight problem?

[iacas]

I'm guessing that clubface and swingpath problems combine to create a slice, and then the slicer starts to make ill-advised compensations, making matters worse. Can someone explain to me how this information might help us better understand this ballflight problem?

Wasn't on-topic in the other thread so I've moved it here.

I'm not sure I understand: if you understand the clubface/swing path and the result on ball flight, you can fix your swing. If you don't, you'll go down the wrong path. For example, let's assume that someone who hits a straight slice (starts straight, slices right) understands it wrong. He's going to think his swing path is fine but his clubface is open when the reality is that it's the opposite. This guy will spend time trying to square up his clubface when it's already square at impact - he should focus on his path but he thinks that's fine.

[RIduffer]

For example, let's assume that someone who hits a straight slice (starts straight, slices right) understands it wrong. He's going to think his swing path is fine but his clubface is open when the reality is that it's the opposite. This guy will spend time trying to square up his clubface when it's already square at impact - he should focus on his path but he thinks that's fine.

Ok, but if you get this person swinging on the right path, will they be able to square the clubface? Or was their OTT move helping them square it up?

[golfdad]

i hope some interesting and helpful inputs from others can make this thread educational...it is a good topic and worth revisiting or deeper understanding.

since i am no golf expert, i will share my shallow understanding on this topic, so you guys can correct me .

first of,,,a purely straight shot comes from only one combination: clubface square to target at moment of impact and clubhead path "square" to target at moment of impact. any other combinations of the above 2 factors will lead to non-straight shots. club face can be closed, square, or open, so 3 possibilities. clubhead path has out to in, in to out and in-sq-in, so grossly speaking, also 3 possibilities. out of 9 possible outcomes, 8 combos will lead to non-straight shots. and my understanding is that for the initial stage of ball flight, clubface plays a bigger role than clubpath. am i really really sure about that? no, but it at some level it makes sense to me.

perhaps of interest to the original poster is the following possibilities:

1. clubface open with in-sq-in path
2. clubface open with in to out path
3. clubface sq with ott path
4. clubface closed with ott path

may be i am missing some, but as a starter, how do each of the 4 above look like in terms of ball flight?

and for argument sake, will one freaky shot from just the right degree of clubface close with ott path actually result in a straight shot, perhaps just shorter in distance?

hope i am helping instead of making things worse!

[iacas]

Ok, but if you get this person swinging on the right path, will they be able to square the clubface? Or was their OTT move helping them square it up?

Uhm, who knows? It's a made-up golfer. Who knows why he was swinging OTT to begin with? I think it's going to be pretty pointless to diagnose a guy that doesn't exist. I simply said that if he thinks his path is fine and his clubface is off when it's the opposite of both, that's clearly not going to help him.

first of,,,a purely straight shot comes from only one combination: clubface square to target at moment of impact and clubhead path "square" to target at moment of impact.

Nope. A straight shot is the clubface square to the swing path, regardless of the target. You described the only straight "good" shot.

Pulls and pushes also go straight, but not at the target. It's a nit, but one worth picking IMO.

club face can be closed, square, or open, so 3 possibilities.

To what? You must specify.

clubhead path has out to in, in to out and in-sq-in, so grossly speaking, also 3 possibilities. out of 9 possible outcomes, 8 combos will lead to non-straight shots.

Nope. Pull, push, and straight shots are all straight shots. Furthermore, a pull fade and a push-draw are also good shots.

In the chart, bold is a "good shot" and italic is a "straight" shot: Pull-draw Pull Pull-fade Straight-draw Straight Straight-fade Push-draw Push Push-fade

and my understanding is that for the initial stage of ball flight, clubface plays a bigger role than clubpath. am i really really sure about that? no, but it at some level it makes sense to me.

Yes, that's the current understanding.

1. clubface open with in-sq-in path

Push-fade. The "in" parts of that don't matter - just impact. Since the path is square "open" is open relative to both the target and the path.

2. clubface open with in to out path

Depending on how open the clubface is (or what it's relative to - path or target) you could have any of the push variations here: push-draw, push, or push-fade.

3. clubface sq with ott path

Straight-fade.

4. clubface closed with ott path

Could be any of the pull scenarios: pull-draw, pull, or pull-fade depending on how the clubface is positioned relative to the swing path.

and for argument sake, will one freaky shot from just the right degree of clubface close with ott path actually result in a straight shot, perhaps just shorter in distance?

It might actually go longer. The club's delofted more with any shot that starts to the left than one that starts to the right.

[Zeph]

may be i am missing some, but as a starter, how do each of the 4 above look like in terms of ball flight?

1. Clubface open with in-sq-in path

It will start off to the right and spin further right 2. Clubface open with in to out path It will start off to the right and go straight, depending on the difference in angle between path and clubhead. If they are at the same angle, the ball will go straight. 3. Clubface sq with ott path It will start off straight and go right 4. Clubface closed with ott path It will start off to the left and go straight, depending on the difference in angle between path and clubhead. If they are at the same angle, the ball will go straight. There are some fundamental things which is essential to understand. Sidespin: Caused by a different angle on the swing path and clubface. It's the only way to impart sidespin on the ball. After you hit a shot, notice two things. 1: Where the ball started off 2: Where the ball fell down The angle the ball started off at is close to the angle of the clubface. Ball starts left, clubface was closed Ball starts right, clubface was open The way the ball spun in the air tells us how the swingpath was, relative to the clubface. Ball curves to the left, swingpath was more open than the clubface angle (more to the right, for right-handed) Ball curves to the right, swingpath was more closed than the clubface angle (more to the left, for right-handed) It's the primary things the flight path can tell us. The ball doesn't care how we are aligned to it, it only responds to the angle of the clubface at impact and how the swingpath is. The bigger the difference is between the clubface angle and swingpath angle, the more spin will be imparted on the ball, and the more it will curve. It will still always start off closer to the angle of the clubface. If the clubface is square relative to the swingpath, the ball will always go straight. This can mean going straight left or right. If the clubface is closed relative to the swingpath, the ball will start close to the angle of the clubface and spin to the left. If the clubface is open relative to the swingpath, the ball will start close to the angle of the clubface and spin to the right. I'll use the image attached. As you can see from the list below, there are only three main variations possible. The ball will go straight, curve left, or curve right. In only three of the examples does the ball go straight. For the ball to go straight, the CF ang SP must be angled the same way. There are of course numerous variations here. I will only have three different angles, to make it easier. Square, closed and open. 1: Clubface square, swingpath square - CF and SP at the same angle 2: Clubface closed, swingpath Out-to-In - CF angled more to the left than the SP 3: Clubface open, swingpath In-to-Out - CF angled more to the right than the SP 4: Clubface square, swingpath In-to-Out - CF angled more to the left than the SP 5: Clubface square, swingpath Out-to-In - CF angled more to the right than the SP 6: Clubface closed, swingpath Out-to-In - CF and SP at the same angle 7: Clubface open, swingpath In-to-Out - CF and SP at the same angle 8: Clubface closed, swingpath square - CF angled more to the left than the SP 9: Clubface open, swingpath square - CF angled more to the right than the SP Attachment 2203

[golfdad]

excellent info from erik and ceph. thanks!

so are slices that end up on fairways and greens called fades?

[iacas]

so are slices that end up on fairways and greens called fades?

My own definition, which may be different from most people's, is that a draw and a slice are simply a baby hook or slice. That is, a small amount of movement is a draw or fade, and a lot of movement is a slice or hook.

I've hooked or sliced the ball around doglegs or trees intentionally and found the green or fairway... but they're still a "slice" or a "hook" in my book if they curve a lot.

[golfdad]

erik, would you care to share with us your preferred way setting up a draw or a fade? the reason i am asking is that some people build it from ground up, others play around with upper limbs. you seem to be a thoughtful chap,,,i am curious on your take and thinking on that...

[Leftygolfer]

I don't know if I agree about what a good shot is.

A push fade if aimed well is a very powerful and highly popular shot of great players. That is the shot I would love to have. I don't think I would call a pull fade "good". In play yes. You are not hitting it on the right side of the circle or the inside of the ball.

[iacas]

erik, would you care to share with us your preferred way setting up a draw or a fade?

It's all about the swing arc for me. A draw is now my stock shot, and I hit it with a square to ever-so-slightly open stance. My clubface is aimed just slightly right of the target and when I contact the ball I'm swinging out at it.

For a push-fade I open up my stance quite a bit and point the clubface slightly left of the target. I still approach the ball from the inside relative to my feet, but it'll be slightly from outside-to-in relative to the target line and my clubface.

A push fade if aimed well is a very powerful and highly popular shot of great players.

You seem to have misunderstood the frame of reference I was using. A "push fade" is a terrible shot when the frame of reference for the initial trajectory is the target. Thus a "push" starts right of the target and if it fades, the ball goes further right of the target. I put "good" in quotes for a reason there. When I said "good" we assumed the golfer was lined up at the target, not 30 yards left of it.

Yes, a "push fade" is a great shot and is played by many successful golfers. But the frame of reference there is well left of the flag or the center of the fairway.

[squaddie]

Ok, but if you get this person swinging on the right path, will they be able to square the clubface? Or was their OTT move helping them square it up?

It's _not_ guaranteed an OTT swinger can close the clubface if they start swinging on the right path (assuming the right path is in to out). The clubface could remain open due to issues with weight transfer and release path of the arms.

Using myself as an example, I started golf with a tendency to swing OTT _and_ have an open clubface at impact, _and_ hit off the heel. Once I had lessons to get my swingpath more in-to-out I was still pushing, push-cutting and slicing and shanking the ball with all my clubs, which was due to not being able to square the clubface at impact, as well as having a tendency to hit off the heel. My Pro has recently indicated (from video analysis) that my open-clubface problem is due to a combination of poor weight transfer to my left side _and_ not releasing properly in the impact zone, my arms turning very shallow and left through impact as opposed to being a little more steeper down the target line. Since I'm trying to get my arms too far left in the release the club is naturally staying more open.

[RIduffer]

It's _not_ guaranteed an OTT swinger can close the clubface if they start swinging on the right path (assuming the right path is in to out). The clubface could remain open due to issues with weight transfer and release path of the arms.

Yeah, this is what I was trying to get at earlier (although I probably didn't explain it well). Fix the swingpath, and the slicer is now hitting right-to-right, so they naturally go back to OTT.

But I guess you've got to change one thing at a time. And fortunately you have an instructor who can help you square the face now that you are swinging on the correct path.

[david_wedzik]

Yeah, this is what I was trying to get at earlier (although I probably didn't explain it well). Fix the swingpath, and the slicer is now hitting right-to-right, so they naturally go back to OTT.

I've read your previous post and the one by squaddie - here is the KEY point to remember regardless of all of the other possible things going on in the swing:

The more a golfer hits out at the ball (on the backside of the circle), the more "open" the clubface can be and still hit a draw. The more the golfer swings out to in the more closed the clubface needs to be to stop the ball from fading or slicing.

[Zeph]

The important point is that every golfer would benefit greatly from knowing what the ball flight can tell. If a golfer struggling with slicing know the reason why his shot ended up in the woods to the right, his chances of getting rid of it is far greater than one that does not.

The relationship between the clubface path and swingpath is what decide how your ball flies through the air. Also, it's important to see that how you set up does not affect this relationship. How you set up only affect how your arms swing the club. You can set up closed relative to the target line and still hit a push-fade by coming from in to out with an open clubface. The ball doesn't care how you stand, it only reacts to the clubface path and swingpath.

[zenchili]

I've read your previous post and the one by squaddie - here is the KEY point to remember regardless of all of the other possible things going on in the swing:

Well put. You can definitely hit draws with an open face, if the path is coming enough from the inside.

[B Keller]

Well put. You can definitely hit draws with an open face, if the path is coming enough from the inside.

I am taking lessons from GolfTec and they are telling me I want a swing path Inside-Out at 2-6* with a club face open half of that path.

So If I am I-O 4* my face needs to be open 2* to hit a straight shot.

[zenchili]

I am taking lessons from GolfTec and they are telling me I want a swing path Inside-Out at 2-6* with a club face open half of that path.

That sounds about right.