Mickelson, Harrington, Daly using PING wedges for grooves. Unfair advantage?

[Fourputt]

no rules have been broken. i dont think phil, daly, mahan, or anybody else thats using the eye2 wedges is doing anything wront, morally or phiysically...

How is requiring more skill from Tour players boring? And if they play from the fairway, they still get essentially the same spin. The new groove rule just puts a premium on actually hitting from the fairway, which is how the game is supposed to be played.

Comments like that make no sense to me. Golf requires more skill now. Spinning a ball backwards stopped being exciting... what... 15 years ago?

Yeah... The pros who know what they are doing try to eliminate excess spin because it's too hard to control. Yesterday Phil hit a shot from the fairway that spun back about 15 -20 feet, off the green, through the fringe and into the rough... didn't look that exciting to me.

[raycharles]

You want everyone to play the same ball, but think it's dumb that regulations on grooves that have always existed were modified slightly recently? And THAT change is what makes golf like NASCAR????? Logic failure, buddy.

I obviously didn't make myself clear. I am not saying that the players should revert back to the old wound balls. Or that players should be forced to use uniform technology, BUT thats precisely what the PGA is doing. I believe all tour players should take advantage of the advances in technology. That would INCLUDE grooves that offer better performance, i.e. spin. I find the groove ruling comical, at best. What is the primary reason for the groove ruling? Is it simply that players have the ability to spin the ball out of lies that were meant to punish them for errant shots? With that logic, then players shouldn't be allowed to play high performance balls. What's next, a return to standard steel blades and persimmon? Neither option makes ANY sense to me.

Let them play what they want to play. Advances in technology made the game better and more enjoyable. In my opinion.

[iacas]

I think you're way off base... the fact is these wedges ARE legal and the TOUR needs to address the issue and reach a settlement with Ping or or the players.

Why must they? An opinion's one thing - actually backing up your opinion instead of just stating it is what makes for a good discussion.

For the record, I don't think the PGA Tour needs to do anything to address the issue. The wedges likely don't work any better than a conforming wedge and I think anyone who uses them may be mentally weak if they think that 20-year-old wedges are going to give them some sort of advantage. Phil's just pissed about his Callaway wedges which were not approved for play. He argued on the putting green with Rugge about it at some tournament last fall.

I don't think anyone (including Phil) would argue the fact that he IS playing the Pings because they have "better" grooves.

Lots of people - including those originally involved with the USGA when the whole thing came about - would argue the point that the wedges don't even perform better. TaylorMade guys tested them and found similar things. Phil's only using it for his 64 degree wedge for reasons he's already stated.

I obviously didn't make myself clear. I am not saying that the players should revert back to the old wound balls. Or that players should be forced to use uniform technology, BUT thats precisely what the PGA is doing.

Uhm, no, they're not. Why can't a player use a ball weighing 2 ounces? Or a 500cc driver? Or a two-faced chipping wedge? How about a club that's longer from face to back than heel to toe? A shaft that flexes differently in different orientations? How about a square grip?

Oh, that's right, rules have always restricted equipment to certain fair measures that attempt to keep the game of golf from turning into, I dunno, a science show with laser-guided ball launching machines or something. Plus, PGA != PGA Tour != USGA.

What is the primary reason for the groove ruling?

With all due respect, have you been absent the past several years? Read the studies. The USGA laid out a fairly careful position.

Let them play what they want to play. Advances in technology made the game better and more enjoyable. In my opinion.

And many - including those in charge of the Rules - disagree. The more technology advances the less talent can separate players. I like seeing talent, personally, not someone taking advantage of technology.

[raycharles]

Why must they? An opinion's one thing - actually backing up your opinion instead of just stating it is what makes for a good discussion.

That's certainly a legalistic viewpoint. Duly noted.

For the record, I don't think the PGA Tour needs to do anything to address the issue. The wedges likely don't work any better than a conforming wedge and I think anyone who uses them may be mentally weak if they think that 20-year-old wedges are going to give them some sort of advantage.

Ahh, an opinion that I agree with, with no data needed. So, then why have a mandate regarding the grooves in question? Just curious.

Lots of people - including those originally involved with the USGA when the whole thing came about - would argue the point that the wedges don't even perform better. TaylorMade guys tested them and found similar things.

Agreed, so again, why is this an issue with the USGA?

Oh, that's right, rules have always restricted equipment to certain fair measures that attempt to keep the game of golf from turning into, I dunno, a science show with laser-guided ball launching machines or something.

Respectfully, wouldn't digital swing analysis and on-course GPS systems fall into that category?

With all due respect, have you been absent the past several years? Read the studies. The USGA laid out a fairly careful position.

Ahh yes, their position. “the purpose of the Rules is ‘to prevent an over-reliance on technological advances rather than skill and to ensure that skill is the dominant element in determining success throughout the game.” Hmm. Skill. Based on their logic, both golf clubs and golf balls should be tweaked in some fashion.

And many - including those in charge of the Rules - disagree. The more technology advances the less talent can separate players. I like seeing talent, personally, not someone taking advantage of technology.

By that logic, the golfers of old are far more talented than the golfers of the current age.

[getTwisted]

I havn't read this entire thread, but all the talk about cheating and what not is stupid. they are playing within the rules....who cares!

[iacas]

Ahh, an opinion that I agree with, with no data needed. So, then why have a mandate regarding the grooves in question? Just curious.

I agree with the groove rule change. I'm not sure you get that.

Agreed, so again, why is this an issue with the USGA?

I'm going to defer to them. They've stated their position clearly.

By that logic, the golfers of old are far more talented than the golfers of the current age.

No, that's not a logical conclusion. I'm not going to debate nonsense.

[Awsi Dooger]

I'm not surprised Phil is struggling today. I bet against him in some final round props. Did anyone see his face yesterday, when he laughably twice used the word slander and veiled threat of lawsuits while talking to Kostis in regard to the McCarron comment? Phil always sports a genuine smile, whether it's knocking knuckles with the gallery or wisecracking through an interview. Yesterday his cheeks were puffy, his eyes drawn, and overall it was a flush and troubled appearance and tone. Plus he couldn't decide whether he needed to bring Butch to the premises or not. As a handicapper it screamed as a go-against scenario. I couldn't believe it when Nantz asked Faldo how Sunday would shake out and Faldo said it was an opportunity for Phil to make an early statement.

Phil supposedly has an opinion on everything. His instinct on the grooves issue is horrendous. There's no way it can help him. If he wins narrowly the Golf Channel and other media will spotlight a specific shot or two and ask if the grooves might have made the difference. If he wins huge then the theme will be no doubt the grooves allowed the separation. Even if there's little to no truth to any of that, it's the way the discussion will naturally unfold. If Phil falls apart, like today, then you've got to wonder if the mental stress played a role. I certainly think so. After moving to Las Vegas in the mid '80s I quickly learned that the sports media never allows enough focus on upstairs influence as opposed to nuts and bolts mechanics. The guys who were insisting Team A was in a downer spot were collecting at higher dependability rate than I was.

Phil has turned peers against him, and guaranteed in exponentially greater numbers than have been voiced. McCarron is hardly the only one who would have seized the same word, in a sport with paycheck dependent on performance not contract. I can't believe a guy who follows all sports as thoroughly as Phil does didn't sit back and ask himself if it was a net benefit or negative. A clear mind can't be undervalued, nor a clean reputation. People who have never followed golf heard the word cheat associated with Phil this week. I saw segments on a couple of the daily entertainment shows. Did he really need that, or not understand it was possible? Playing those clubs doesn't make a point. Phil had all the focus he'd ever need, particularly with Tiger absent. He could have played so-called conforming grooves and dissected the difference in every press conference after every round, one shot after another, framing the debate on his terms. He forfeited every bit of that.

Am I supposed to buy Phil's celebrated short game DVD now, since apparently it was all dependent on square grooves?

[Shanks A Million]

I obviously didn't make myself clear. I am not saying that the players should revert back to the old wound balls. Or that players should be forced to use uniform technology, BUT thats precisely what the PGA is doing. I believe all tour players should take advantage of the advances in technology. That would INCLUDE grooves that offer better performance, i.e. spin. I find the groove ruling comical, at best. What is the primary reason for the groove ruling? Is it simply that players have the ability to spin the ball out of lies that were meant to punish them for errant shots? With that logic, then players shouldn't be allowed to play high performance balls. What's next, a return to standard steel blades and persimmon? Neither option makes ANY sense to me.

Again, sorry to put it this bluntly, but this is stupid.

Before anyone else says a word about balls and clubs, know this: The USGA already has limits imposed on balls, clubs, and all other equipment! All balls must be 1.62 oz or less, 1.8" or more, and must conform to certain standards as well. Drivers must have a COR of less than .83, a MOI of less than 5900 I believe, a maximum head volume of 460 CCs, and a shaft no more than 48" long... Still don't think the rest of the game is regulated that closely? This same exact issue in other forms has been played out through the years. The players were using larger and larger drivers, so they limited the head size... The drivers kept getting more COR, so they limited the COR... This is nothing new, but it puts a bunch of bomb and gougers out of buisness, so of course they're complaining! Iacas, you're a beacon of logic in a rather dull world (at least when it comes to golf).

[1bigdawg]

Phil is taking his anger out on the USGA and PGA for allowing something like this to happen they created this mess. In an interview on Golf Channel, Phil said he had been in closed door discussions about this with the USGA and PGA. Even Phil has said it is ridiculous rule, he is also angry about submitting what he felt were legal clubs and they were deemed illegal; at that point I think he said fine, I will use the exception and find a Ping Eye 2.

I have not heard if Ping has issued any press release, they certainly are not going to make any money unless they have a warehouse someplace here in Phoenix that is full of these clubs, fixing a bunch of old clubs for professionals probably does not bring in much revenue that makes it to the bottom line. It would be interesting to know if the USGA talked to Ping to see if they would agree to a waiver of the previous ruling that made the Ping Eye 2 irons legal for this new rule.

Phil is the honorable person and golfer that I and many believe he is, I believe this is Phil's only way to get the powers at be to work with Ping and amend the Jan 1, 2010 rule to make the Ping Eye 2 clubs out of spec.

What I don't think Phil expected was the backlash and that weighed heavy on his mind this weekend and showed in his finish.

[jamo]

http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/blog/de...rn=golf,216646

That article is a link showing why the non-golf world should not get involved in the golf world. The PGA owes Mickelson no apology. First of all, as far as i know, the loophole can't be fixed, the USGA lost in court, that can't be changed. I'm assuming the PGA TOUR might be able to enact a rule banning the Ping Eye2's, but really, why should they? Phil isn't gaining any sort of competitive advantage because anyone could use these wedges and because i'm not convinced that 20 year old wedges spin more than a brand new Vokey that does conform. And what has the PGA TOUR done to Phil? Nothing. Now, i still don't agree with Mickelson's decision to play the wedges, mostly because i wouldn't myself, but the PGA owes him nothing.

Alright, rant over...

[iacas]

First of all, as far as i know, the loophole can't be fixed, the USGA lost in court, that can't be changed.

No they didn't. I didn't go to court; PING and the USGA settled. Only because PING had shipped so many clubs to people were they allowed to remain "approved."

And people, please: PGA != PGA Tour != USGA. That's not just @jamo, it's for everyone.

[Fatphil]

phil implied he wants to sue McCarran for slander...I didn't think a public figure could get slandered...Kinda like calling a politician a jerk. interesting....any ambulance chasers out there wanna comment.

[jamo]

And people, please: PGA != PGA Tour != USGA. That's not just @jamo, it's for everyone.

I know, i know, i just forget to type TOUR sometimes.

[sean_miller]

phil implied he wants to sue McCarran for slander...I didn't think a public figure could get slandered...Kinda like calling a politician a jerk. interesting....any ambulance chasers out there wanna comment.

You can maybe call someone a jerk, but I'm not so sure about "cheater" (or "crook" or "sheister").

[Wahoo]

Phil has no chance of winning a slander suit. Nobody misstated anything factual about him. They just said that he used the Ping wedge (which he did), and they feel like he is a cheater because of it. No misstatement of fact here.

[sean_miller]

Phil has no chance of winning a slander suit. Nobody misstated anything factual about him. They just said that he used the Ping wedge (which he did), and they feel like he is a cheater because of it. No misstatement of fact here.

That's all true.

[obiwan21]

phil implied he wants to sue McCarran for slander...I didn't think a public figure could get slandered...Kinda like calling a politician a jerk. interesting....any ambulance chasers out there wanna comment.

My understanding of slander is that you would need to show just cause that the alleged slander damaged your reputation, and that that damage affected your earning potential. It's possible in this case that Phil's lawyers could argue such a case, but at what cost? If I'm Phil I think I let it slide. BTW, anyone think that maybe the wedge controversy that seemed to reach critical mass during Saturday's round had anything to do with Phil's hectic round on Sunday? Just wondering.

[Acropo]

I'm not sure that PM's final round on Sunday indicated any advantage from the old wedges, so how long will it be before there is a revelation that the latest Callaway offering is'the best I've ever played/could play under the new rules/better than those old ones I've been playing'.

Eh? Any bets?

And btw, Phil, if you're watching - I disliked the Callaway lob wedge with your name on it I had so much that I swapped it for a Benross 3-wood.

So there.