Christians

[Cussin hacker]

This simply is not true.

You are refering only to evangelicals. The chritian faith has many more sects than that. True...... It's mostly white and western. So billions of people around the world will be condemed to hell for not being a chistian. So you say!

[jlh1508]

You are refering only to evangelicals. The chritian faith has many more sects than that. True...... It's mostly white and western. So billions of people around the world will be condemed to hell for not being a chistian. So you say!

No the majority of Christianity falls under the label evangelical. If you want to add catholics into the mix go right ahead, its not going to change the numbers that much

The fact is the notion of Christianity as a white man religion is no longer true, but continue to believe that all you want and no one is being condemned for not being a christian, people are condemned because of their sin

[muskegman]

I discovered this thread via Erik's weblog.

Regarding the first question... Am I a Christian? If by Christian you mean a good practitioner of a religion called Christianity, then definitely not. I think that began falling apart a few years ago. I do want to humbly live out teachings of Jesus. I hope to be kind, generous, and unselfish. And I think those things are cultivated and encouraged by my faith. And yes, there are plenty of kind, generous, and unselfish agnostics and atheists.

I don't believe science and faith are incompatible. I don't agree with the common evangelical Christian notion that an individual has to be a young-earth creationist to walk in faith. Ultimately this has to do with my belief that there are a few essentials and a ton of gray. There's a lot we've got to learn in both faith and science.

[sacm3bill]

I'm a Christian, and FWIW I'm embarrassed and saddened by the ignorance (of not just science but of certain aspects of Christianity itself) shown by some of the other Christians who have posted here.

There are many ways to come to Christianity. Blind acceptance is one of them, but that's not how it happened for me. While my interests lean more towards math/science, I have studied theology and have found logical, satisfying answers to the valid questions that have been posed ("How could a just God allow x, y, z", for example). I highly recommend C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity" if you're interested in what some of those answers are.

And btw, to correct the impression that has been given by some: The doctrine of inerrancy (literal interpretation of the bible) is *not* a basic tenet of Christianity.

[zeg]

Shanks a million, a Christian believes that the Bible is the literal Word of God. You cannot be a Christian and not believe everything the Bible says.. it isn't possible. Christians believe that God's Word is perfect, and that God wrote the Bible. So to a Christian, the Bible is perfect and without error.

Glad to hear that the beliefs of your sect are the end-all be-all definition of Christianity. I'd always thought that "Christian" meant something more like "believing in Christ" and had assumed that the existence of hundreds of sects and subsects meant that there was more than one way to believe in him. Thanks for clarifying.

Choosing to follow Christ and believe in God is all about FAITH. It is not about facts. Like I said before.. NO ONE has all the answers. I don't care if the smartest man on the planet tells me that rocks make the universe a trillion years old.. I have my FAITH in my GOD and that is what I live by.

Ok, but some would say that you're disgracing God by refusing to use the powers of observation and rational thought that He empowered you with. Others would say that the evidence is put down as a challenge to test your faith. My point? Don't pretend your interpretation is the only one.

There are many ways to come to Christianity. Blind acceptance is one of them, but that's not how it happened for me. While my interests lean more towards math/science, I have studied theology and have found logical, satisfying answers to the valid questions that have been posed ("How could a just God allow x, y, z", for example). I highly recommend C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity" if you're interested in what some of those answers are.

Yep! Here's another interpretation! Welcome to the discussion.

[Silzildrummer]

Shanks a million, a Christian believes that the Bible is the literal Word of God. You cannot be a Christian and not believe everything the Bible says.. it isn't possible.

I'm interested in hearing what you thoughts towards Pope John Paul II are/were when he announced his opinions on evolution as factual. Would you then call him a non-Christian?

[Cussin hacker]

No the majority of Christianity falls under the label evangelical. If you want to add catholics into the mix go right ahead, its not going to change the numbers that much

So you are saying you don't have to be a christain to go to heaven?

[msd3075]

Butch Harmon, nothing you have said in this forum is worthwhile. All you are doing is trying to persecute Christians and make fun of them. How does your statement asking me to go buy a dinosaur at the zoo have any credibility at all in this discussion?

The problem is that too many religious people confuse blind faith with absolute truth. By definition, if you have faith in something it's impossible for you to believe it to be 100% true; otherwise it'd be a fact or at least something that was generally accepted as an absolute truth. If you have to have faith in something to believe it, it means there are gaps in the factual justification but that you believe it anyway because you trust it to be true. That does NOT mean you are wrong for believing it. It just means that you have to understand that you are the one making assumptions and cannot act as if your idea is infallible.

As long as someone of faith understand this and accepts that by having faith they are directly saying they aren't sure but trust it anyway, there really isnt' anything wrong. As soon as that person believes that they are 100% right and all other ideas that conflict are inherently inccorect, they no longer have faith.

[Phil McGleno]

Butch Harmon, nothing you have said in this forum is worthwhile.

You seem to be confusing "doesn't agree with you" with "worthwhile."

How does your statement asking me to go buy a dinosaur at the zoo have any credibility at all in this discussion?

It's in regards to the comments about a dinosaur existing in the Bible. It does not. Never mentions 'em.

You cannot be a Christian and not believe everything the Bible says.. it isn't possible.

Now that, I know, is bullshit. The majority of the world's Christians don't believe everything the Bible says. They realize it's a book of stories. Look up the definition of the word "Christian."

Christians believe that God's Word is perfect, and that God wrote the Bible.

God didn't write the Bible. Heck, we know who wrote several of the hundreds of editions of the Bible that exist. Heck, King Henry wrote the first English version of the Bible. If God wrote the Bible, what language did he use?

"And I solemnly declare to everyone who hears the words of prophecy written in this book: If anyone adds anything to what is written here, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book. And if anyone removes any of the words from this book of prophecy, God will remove that person's share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book." -- Revelation 22:18-19. The Bible wouldn't state that right at the end if by chance the Bible was wrong.

What kind of logic is that? The Bible wouldn't state that if the Bible was wrong?

OK. I'm not actually a human, I'm actually God, right here, posting on the forum. If anyone edits what I've written he'll die immediately.

It is not about facts. Like I said before.. NO ONE has all the answers.

Of course nobody does. But many people have awfully good answers that directly conflict with the Bible and some of the things others have said in this thread.

Good post Brugz!

Go play golf, jots.

It's mostly white and western. So billions of people around the world will be condemed to hell for not being a chistian. So you say!

Yep.

Here's a question for the over-the-top Christians out there: why is Jesus always shown as a white dude? You do realize he would have been basically black or very dark skinned if he existed at all, right?

I'm a Christian, and FWIW I'm embarrassed and saddened by the ignorance (of not just science but of certain aspects of Christianity itself) shown by some of the other Christians who have posted here. The doctrine of inerrancy (literal interpretation of the bible) is *not* a basic tenet of Christianity.

Thanks. You seem like a reasonable guy.

I don't have a problem with Christianity or Christians. Many are good friends of mine. I have a problem with what I see as stupidity. sacm, you don't seem thus afflicted, nor are my friends. Congratulations.

[jlh1508]

So you are saying you don't have to be a christain to go to heaven?

I could care less about labels. However to your premise there is a big difference between what causes one to go to heaven and by what one is condemned. We all start condemned because of OUR(not because of anything God did) sin, no matter what you believe frees you of that condemnatiion it doesn't change that God didn't condemn you, but you condemned yourself with your actions( unless of course you are the first perfect person to live)

[jlh1508]

The notion that Christianity is a "white" religion is false as I have already talked about in this thread. Over the last 15 years Christianity has shifted from being a western religion and the shift is still place in which eventually westerners will be the minority in Christianity.

As for why Jesus is always shown as white, because there are a lot of uneducated people in the world.

[Cussin hacker]

I could care less about labels.

You are dancing around the question. I ask a simple question and you are complicating it with double talk.

And the cristian religion is a white western religion. It was mainsteamed by the 5th century Romans then spread throughout Europe and to the new world. It will always be a white western religion just as islam will always be a middleastern religion no matter where you live.

[Brugz7]

What is believing? There are so many people that say they believe in Jesus. The way I see it, how can you believe in Jesus and not listen to what He commands? Sure, you can believe that he was a man that lived on the earth, but that doesn't mean you believe he died and was risen from the dead. My point is that when you truly believe Jesus died for you so that you would be forgiven and have eternal life.. there is no possible way you will go on living your life for the things of this world or not trying to obey everything He says. Jesus said no one comes to the Father except through Him. If that is true, then I'm going to live my life honoring and obeying hiim because I want to get to my Father, God.

You can call me radical, extreme, or whatever you want. You can tell me my interpretation isn't the only one. I don't believe God put me on this earth to question Him . I use my "powers of observation and rational thought" every single day. I look at my family and rationally think that there is no way that God doesn't exist. I rationally think about the ways my life has changed in the past couple months and realize God is with me and all these things aren't by chance.

How can I possibly be disgracing God by obeying Him?

[jlh1508]

You are dancing around the question. I ask a simple question and you are complicating it with double talk.

your question had nothing to do with your original post.

You originally stated that God condemns billions of people to hell because they are not Christians. I maintain the point God condemns no one to hell, people's actions condemn them to hell. That has nothing to do with how one goes to heaven, it has everything to do with how one is condemned to hell You don't seem to understand that there are 2 seperate discussion at play here that are exclusive from one another

[msd3075]

You can call me radical, extreme, or whatever you want. You can tell me my interpretation isn't the only one.

The problem is that you aren't using "rational thought" seeing as (and I am assuming here a bit) that you are going about your "questioning" in the wrong way.

At least from a scientific standpoint, you have to enter into an experiment/analysis/question/study/etc with absolutely no preconcieved ideas of what the outcome is. You don't test the possible solution with the experiment; you conduct the experiment, interpret the result, THEN come to a conclusion. The problem most people have with almost all the support for most major religions is that the "proof" doesn't objectively allow other explanations and only looks into just the possibility of the religous justification. It's like going into an experiment and already having your conclusion written without doing the experiment, conducting the experiment, and then trying to use the reuslt to prove the conclusion you already had.

[msd3075]

your question had nothing to do with your original post.

You both are saying the exact same thing. I say pro-choice, you say pro-abortion. I say estate tax, you say death tax. I say pedophilia, you say NAMBLA. It's all in the semantics.

[nike_golf]

well, if he was actually a man, then denying he was a man would mean that person is literally insane. i, for one, do not believe he existed. a man who raised the dead, made blind people see, cured leprosy, made thousands of fish appear out of nowhere, went around washing people's feet, for whom the sun was eclipsed at his crucifixion, and who rose days later never to be found. and there's only one piece of literature that can be found about the guy, so it's hardly proof of anything? and it's not even that much, really. the first gospel was penned 40 years after he allegedly died, and in turkey. so there is no first hand testimony of any of his exploits. there really is no good reason to think he did exist.

Maybe one day, you will be saved. Until then, good luck to you. That's all I'm going to say about that. That's all I need to say.

[Brugz7]

Butch Harmon, those people who call themselves Christians are most likely hypocrites.