Lag - Sweep Release vs. Snap Release

[iacas]

Another thread made me do this, but I often see people talking about "casting" and I think a lot of the time people confuse "casting" with what I've seen called a "sweep release" of lag.

Here's an image for y'all:
http://iacas.org/f/zuback_downswing_sequence.jpg

The ball goes 185+ MPH... and some would say Jason Zuback cast the club in that sequence. He doesn't, he just employs a sweep release. You can hit the ball far that way, clearly, and you can win majors - Tom Watson was a sweep releaser.

This is the opposite of a "snap release" like the one employed by Ben Hogan, Sergio Garcia, etc.

Most golfers fit somewhere in the middle, but a lot of people seem to think you have to look like Sergio or else you're casting. That's not true.

[boogielicious]

The pictures are really small when I open the file.

[iacas]

The pictures are really small when I open the file.

No they're not. They're 270 pixels tall - you're probably not viewing it at 100% size...

[Fatphil]

yeh just click on the image it pops back to full size...

anyway...best post I've seen in weeks...I'm guilty as charged,,,I actually thought of this yesterday watching JB Holmes..how the hell does he hit the ball so far with no wrist angle. Is that the same or does he increase angle on the way down?

[nevets88]

How do Garcia and Hogan do a snap release?

I just assumed they turn their hips towards the target while they're completing the backswing earlier than most?

Correct me if I'm wrong, it looks like Lucas Glovertends toward the snap release? Or he just has a quick action on the downswing.

[boogielicious]

Must be my work computer. I will try at home.

Thanks.

[allin]

Another thread made me do this, but I often see people talking about "casting" and I think a lot of the time people confuse "casting" with what I've seen called a "sweep release" of lag.

How would this feel in the transition from backswing to downswing?. This would seem to be at variance with the find the slot, hands drop straight down tips? As a guy who has broken both my wrists at different times and one of them twice, the wrist flexibility I lack would not seem to be as big a deal with this release?

[iacas]

This would seem to be at variance with the find the slot, hands drop straight down tips?

First off, the "hands drop down to find the slop" thing only really works if you lift the hands to begin with. Not true of the "one-plane" swingers very much.

Jason isn't strictly a one-plane guy, but in the frames in this video he is, wouldn't you say? His right elbow is already planted into the side of his rib cage. If he is a two-planer beyond this point, it's quite possible to drop while releasing some of your lag. But odds are he didn't get Daly-like wrist cocking to put the club down pointing at the ground past parallel to begin with...

[allin]

First off, the "hands drop down to find the slop" thing only really works if you lift the hands to begin with. Not true of the "one-plane" swingers very much.

Following your reasoning, one planers move is to retain or return to plane? So any move would be less dramatic? How would a sweep release feel compared to snap, or should either one be automatic and just a response to your swing action?

[Fatphil]

this is an interesting thread as I think most weekend golfers just don't have the flex in their wrists to even come close to a 90* lag. I've tried and I can't re-create Sergios position; no way, no how...This makes me feel better as it shows that as long as you stay on plane and don't come over the top you can in fact get decent distance even if you don't look "textbook". Would Steve Stricker be an example??

To clarify the difference btw casting and lag is enlightening.

[iacas]

Following your reasoning, one planers move is to retain or return to plane?

I just mean that if you're a one-plane swinger you don't have to "drop." The "drop" just returns your elbow to your rib cage. If it never leaves your ribcage, there's no dropping.

How would a sweep release feel compared to snap, or should either one be automatic and just a response to your swing action?

I still think lag is largely a result, not something you actively work on. I just wanted to point out that you can have a "sweep release" and it's not "casting."

this is an interesting thread as I think most weekend golfers just don't have the flex in their wrists to even come close to a 90* lag.

The fingers in your hand are already nearly 90 degrees. If you gripped the club straight across in the fingers (which you don't do in a golf swing, I'm just making the point) it's already at 90°.

I've tried and I can't re-create Sergios position; no way, no how...

Sergio's more like 135° (a left arm to shaft angle of 45°).

Would Steve Stricker be an example??

Steve's in between from what I can tell. People love to talk about how he has no wrist action but he snap loads

a little on the downswing. I can't find a great face-on view of Stricker's swing, but go frame by frame through this one and you'll see he has a little lag on the downswing, maybe even more than Jason Zuback: In other words, all that talk about Stricker not using his wrists is overblown. It's mostly on his takeaway/backswing, and then the downswing happens so fast you don't notice that he added to the left-arm/club-shaft angle.

[senorchipotle]

this is an interesting thread as I think most weekend golfers just don't have the flex in their wrists to even come close to a 90* lag. I've tried and I can't re-create Sergios position; no way, no how...This makes me feel better as it shows that as long as you stay on plane and don't come over the top you can in fact get decent distance even if you don't look "textbook". Would Steve Stricker be an example??

i don't think the amount of flex in your wrists has anything to do with how much or how little you play golf. it's a matter of dexterity. i've always hit the ball with a very acute angle between my left arm and clubshaft. i always thought that's how you were supposed to hit it when i was learning to play. in fact, it's quite simple to keep that angle, although if you're not used to the timing it you'll mishit the ball. i've tried sweeping the ball more, but then i end up not taking divots and hitting the ball super thin. sergio's angle is a bit deceptive because he bows his wrist quite a bit once he passes hip level on the downswing, so he creates more of an angle, but it's an angle that is managed on two pivot points instead of one, the hinging plus the bowing of the wrist. if he kept his wrist flat however, there is no way to create an angle less than 90* unless your wrist is broken, in which case you probably would not be swinging a club. essentially, one can achieve such an angle in his own swing provided that person is not arthritic, etc.

[Shanks A Million]

I've often had people tell me I was casting, reverse pivoting, or coming over the top. All three are untrue. I also release the lag very slowly, but my hands are always in front of the ball at impact. The reason they think I reverse pivot, is because my weight doesn't go all the way back on the backswing. The reason they think I come over the top is because I hit a fade (it took me a lot of work to be able to hit a fade too).

What people tell you they think you're doing is generally not a good thing to rely on. I keep videos of my swing so I can look for myself, or have a professional look. Even the clubfitter told me he wanted to give some extra draw bias to my clubs... Draw bias! I have suffered from a snap hook! He thinks because the ball starts right on the simulator that I slice it. The simulator only shows where the ball impacts on the screen, and in what direction.

He also told me I was casting the club. Again, crazy. My clubshaft leans forward 13° on a 3 iron at impact. Does that sound like casting? And as for a reverse pivot, my weight moves so far forward at the finish, that my back foot often slides forward several inches. Not a reverse pivot. People assume too much. That's the problem I have with store personnel, they often have no idea what they're talking about.

[Shanks A Million]

Oops, I made a mistake, my camera was sitting at an angle. I thought that number seemed extreme. Remeasuring to the horizon, my 3 iron leans forward just 4° at impact, not 13°.

[steve8820]

He also told me I was casting the club. Again, crazy. My clubshaft leans forward 13° on a 3 iron at impact. Does that sound like casting? And as for a reverse pivot, my weight moves so far forward at the finish, that my back foot often slides forward several inches. Not a reverse pivot. People assume too much. That's the problem I have with store personnel, they often have no idea what they're talking about.

A forward leaning shaft at impact does NOT imply that you did not cast or come over the top. I can remember of my first lessons 2 years ago and seeing my swing on video. I would line of right of the target, big over the top move on the downswing, and trap the ball. Sure enough, video of my swing "face on" indicated a a forward leaning shaft and a pretty good impact position. The "pretty good" impact position is why I could play decent golf with that swing, when my timing was on. When timing was off, look out...........

[maelkoth]

Sweep vs Snap

[Fatphil]

i don't think the amount of flex in your wrists has anything to do with how much or how little you play golf. it's a matter of dexterity.

OK OK I don't think we accomplish anything by arguing who can achieve 90* and who can't....I can't so FU...The interesting point here is that even with an 80* or 75* lag you can still get a decent hit if u stay on plane and don't cast (aka early release)

[Shanks A Million]

A forward leaning shaft at impact does NOT imply that you did not cast or come over the top. I can remember of my first lessons 2 years ago and seeing my swing on video. I would line of right of the target, big over the top move on the downswing, and trap the ball. Sure enough, video of my swing "face on" indicated a a forward leaning shaft and a pretty good impact position. The "pretty good" impact position is why I could play decent golf with that swing, when my timing was on. When timing was off, look out...........

That's a major flaw that about 99% of beginners have. They point their feet at their target. I did it for a while. I actually stand open, and hit the ball with a slight inside-out push. I keep daily video records of my swing, and I often come way too much from the inside, resulting in a snap hook, which is my major miss. I also don't cast the club, when you look at slow motion video, my club is at a 90° angle at waist high. My point is that people often see my slower "sweep" release, and assume that I'm casting, or see that my ball goes right, and assume I came over the top. It annoys me, because these same people usually are have never once seen their swing on film, who proceed to "show me" the correct way, with their own terrible and flawed swing.

What you feel and what's real... Totally different. That's why I only trust a camera.