Hogan slow motion drill....Who does it?????

[tm22721]

Turning the hips doesn't automate those things. Pushing the hips forward does, particularly secondary axis tilt and, of course, the weight shift. Lag too.

On page 71 of Five Lessons he makes the point that after coiling in the backswing the increased tension caused by turning the hips to start the downswing makes the downswing almost automatic.

[Jcp907]

I start off my practice in slow motion, checking position in key areas that my instructor has me working on.

they say that doing the slo mo is the equivalent of hitting hundreds of balls on the range, with the added benefit of being able to monitor your positions more accurately than with a full regular swing.

I can see this, to a point. Consider that if you are taking full swings, at regular speed. Perhaps the swing sequence takes 1.5 seconds. Hit 100 balls. You just spent 2.5 minutes in your swing. If you work on the swing in slow motion for the same amount of time, it won't net the same result as hitting 100 balls, however, you are spending the same amount of time, in your swing positions. It has proven to me that it is an efficient use of my time, particularly when it comes to sequence. It hasn't all come together for me, but damn, I am getting close!

As far as tension goes, I can definitely feel tension at the top of my swing, even in slow motion. I am certain there is more at speed, but I believe that I can show myself the feeling that I am looking for, in slow motion.

[iacas]

On page 71 of Five Lessons he makes the point that after coiling in the backswing the increased tension caused by turning the hips to start the downswing makes the downswing almost automatic.

Sorry, but that doesn't make it reality. That feeling may have worked for Ben Hogan, but as I've pointed out in several places before, Ben Hogan's "bump and turn" isn't really what he actually did, either - his hips pushed forward a TON. There was no little "bump."

I think there's a lot of danger in just accepting what people tell you about the golf swing, regardless of how good a player they were. Hogan's book has a lot of good information, but it's not all accurate or great. Put your own thought and analysis into things.

[tm22721]

Sorry, but that doesn't make it reality. That feeling may have worked for Ben Hogan, but as I've pointed out in several places before, Ben Hogan's "bump and turn" isn't really what he actually did, either - his hips pushed forward a TON. There was no little "bump."

As significant as this forward motion is, it is incidental to the dominant around motion. So much instruction exhorts us to slide the hips forward and then turn them. Or, bump the hips forward and then turn. Hogan was exactly right it's about rotation, rotation, rotation. Around, around,around. Focus on rotating--forward will take care of itself.

[Phil McGleno]

As significant as this forward motion is, it is incidental to the dominant around motion.

Ha, says a 10.3. What a joke.

In all my years of teaching I've never met a student who doesn't turn his hips forward enough, and I've never met a student who doesn't go far enough forward with his hips. Hogan was exactly WRONG, WRONG, WRONG (for the average golfer - that advice is only "right" for his swing because he never wanted to draw the ball). Rotate all you want if you want to hit weak slappy slices like every average golfer does. Go ahead. Push forward and let the rotation take care of itself (it will) if you want to hit the ball solidly and compress it.

[MPS67]

Turning the hips doesn't automate those things. Pushing the hips forward does, particularly secondary axis tilt and, of course, the weight shift. Lag too.

Iacas & Butch,

I've been practicing a lot lately in regards to developing the correct hip movement forward in the downswing. I believe that I'm finally seeing some success after much swing experimentation and misunderstanding of concepts. For the longest time, I performed the forward hip slide without eventually spinning and clearing them, because I thought that it would occur naturally. For some it probably does, but for me, I have to consciously spin them after an initial hip slide. It seems to me that an initial wider rotation induced shift, and then spin of the hips is what is working best for me at the moment. With keeping the spine angle intact, I would explain the first portion of hip movement in the downswing as follows: Starting with the aft back pocket up against an imaginary vertical wall behind the golfer which is parallel to the target line, slide the hips forward until both back pockets are up against this wall and do so while keeping the head back. I would classify this move forward as a hip slide with a distance of about 5-6 inches. See Sean's video for a more detailed explanation.... I would then describe the latter portion of the hip move as follows: While maintaining the spine angle, spin the hips around in place so that the left hip eventually rotates away from the target. I also assist spinning my hips by pushing off with the inside edge of my right foot, which I keep near the ground for a s long as possible. This helps me keeps my spine angle tilted and puts me into a position to better rotate my torso and shoulders around. The rotational forces eventually force me to fully raise up my heal. See Bobby Eldridge's video for a more detailed explanation.... Here's a video that I found that has helped me with the hip sequencing and spin. It's very similar to a section in Ben Hogan's Five Fundamentals book where he writes about releasing a basket ball in a half sidearm and half underarm motion towards the target. Iacas, Butch, TZ, or anyone else, I'm still learning this difficult set of movements. If you don't mind, I would very much like to hear your take on my understanding of this complex set of movements. Thank you so much, Mark (MPS67 )

[mctaylor22]

I know I do the slow motion drill (not that slow though) before/after I make an uncomfortable shot or before I need to make a "clutch" shot. It pays off in my opinion because it really slows your tempo and allows you to concentrate on the shot at hand, and what the circumstances require. I do not see how many people can walk up to the ball and just hit it without attempting some form of a practice swing or another. But that's just me...

[Phil McGleno]

For the longest time, I performed the forward hip slide without eventually spinning and clearing them, because I thought that it would occur naturally. For some it probably does, but for me, I have to consciously spin them after an initial hip slide.

I'd believe it if I saw it, I suppose, but you saying that doesn't convince me. I've never seen an average golfer whose hips don't rotate open as much as they need so long as they have reasonable fundamentals (i.e. they're not lined up 30 degrees right or something else stupid).

It seems to me that an initial wider rotation induced shift, and then spin of the hips is what is working best for me at the moment. With keeping the spine angle intact, I would explain the first portion of hip movement in the downswing as follows:

"Keeping the spine angle intact?" Hope Erik doesn't see this. If he doesn't respond, it's probably because he can't possibly be nice about it.

The spine angle thing gets him every time.

See Sean's video for a more detailed explanation....

Problem with Sean's video is that it encourages your left hip to move towards the ball (it has to - the right hip can't go back because your butt starts on the wall already).

See Bobby Eldridge's video for a more detailed explanation....

This guy's completely off his rocker. "So many weekend golfers"? None of them do the move he demonstrates at 0:50. Garbage.

The hips push forward and continue to push forward as they turn. You need to release the flex in your knees and your lower back ("jumping" some call it, extension through the swing, whatever) to continue to turn. So anyway, without video of your swing, the discussion's not really one we can have. I don't know what you're doing and I dare say I doubt you do either (simply based on "feel isn't real").

[MPS67]

"Keeping the spine angle intact?" Hope Erik doesn't see this. If he doesn't respond, it's probably because he can't possibly be nice about it.

Maybe I didn't use the correct terminology. The spine angle that I'm trying to maintain, and keep intact, is the one from the "down the line viewpoint." This video explains it.

Problem with Sean's video is that it encourages your left hip to move towards the ball (it has to - the right hip can't go back because your butt starts on the wall already).

Kind of. The right butt cheek is up against the wall and slides forward 4-6 inches while staying against the wall. At the same time, the left butt cheek rotates away from the ball and up against the same wall, sliding forward as well. This is a forward weight shift and slide, isn't it? It looks like it pulls the club and arms down as well. Then it appears that Sean spins his hips in place where the left hip actually moves back away from the target, which pulls the upper torso and club around.

This guy's completely off his rocker. "So many weekend golfers"? None of them do the move he demonstrates at 0:50. Garbage.

I was one of those weekend golfers because I fell into the trap of listening to advise to slide the hips forward and as far as possible. I can easily, and have often performed the major flaw starting at 0:50.

That's why I believe that a slide then spin sequence might be right for some.

The hips push forward and continue to push forward as they turn. You need to release the flex in your knees and your lower back ("jumping" some call it, extension through the swing, whatever) to continue to turn.

I'll look into this method of jumping that you're writing about. You may be correct that I don't know what I'm talking about. That's why I'm asking you and others for assistance in this "playing tips" help forum Thank you for your input and help. MPS67

[iacas]

Maybe I didn't use the correct terminology. The spine angle that I'm trying to maintain, and keep intact, is the one from the "down the line viewpoint." This video explains it.

Butch was right. That video - like virtually every other on the "spine angle" is either misleading at best or downright terrible at worst.

Kind of. The right butt cheek is up against the wall and slides forward 4-6 inches while staying against the wall. At the same time, the left butt cheek rotates away from the ball and up against the same wall, sliding forward as well.

That misses the point Butch was trying to make. If your right butt cheek is against the wall and you rotate to slide it, the left hip goes towards the ball. No really good golfer does this - their right hip goes back (and up). They rotate more about their left hip joint than the middle of their hips.

I was one of those weekend golfers because I fell into the trap of listening to advise to slide the hips forward and as far as possible. I can easily, and have often performed the major flaw starting at 0:50.

I'm with Butch: I doubt it. I've never seen that move from a guy who doesn't at least have a single digit handicap.

I'll look into this method of jumping that you're writing about. You may be correct that I don't know what I'm talking about. That's why I'm asking you and others for assistance in this "playing tips" help forum

I'm not going to be able to help you because I don't believe you. So, I'm begging out of this conversation. Good luck.

[JetFan1983]

Very enlightening thread.

Still love Ben though. But, very enlightening stuff.

[GaryH]

I'm going to do a load of slow motion swings over the next few days and see if it helps.

[Limpinswinger]

Originally Posted by shortstop20

Does anybody here ever do the Hogan slow motion/concentration drill? Sure don't hear much talk about it. I use it alot over the winter when I can't play and when I'm not playing during the summer. I think it helps alot considering I could only practice once every week or two for a couple hours and I dropped about 17 shots.

Interesting.  It's hard to see from this perspective, but, in other videos it seems that Hogan completes his hip slide before his downswing begins.

PS: Uggh, I hate it when I respond to a post only to realize it was from 2 years ago.

[GaryH]

Sorry about that, Limpinswinger.

As a newbie, I've noticed that there are some massive threads on here. As such i guessed that the etiquette on here is to ressurrect an existing thread rather than start a new one.  So i did a search for slow motion swings first and posted on here.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by GaryH

As a newbie, I've noticed that there are some massive threads on here. As such i guessed that the etiquette on here is to ressurrect an existing thread rather than start a new one.  So i did a search for slow motion swings first and posted on here.

That's ideal yes. I don't care if the thread is old if the idea is still the same. Resurrecting a thread about a news event that occurred might not be wise, but for "timeless" things like this, absolutely.

[1puttit]

The folks at Vision54 recommend a similar slow motion drill they call the "Tai Chi Golf Swing".  I find trying to make the swing last about 30 seconds is very helpful and helps ingrain changes and feelings.