One way NOT to handle pace of play

[Shindig]

Thanks to everyone for the responses. I will be drafting an email to the course's management team in a few minutes, based off my original post. I will be sure to include the name of the person who was in the pro shop when I came in to complain, as indicated, although I'm sure the management can easily determine who was present at the time.

I do want to clarify one thing:

  nike_golf said:

The OP himself said that this 4:15 round he played was an hour over his average.

No, my

fastest rounds are 3:15 - and I've done it several times. My usual is on a crowded L.A. City course which says it is the busiest municipal course in the world, and I believe it.

[muzz]

  iacas said:

Agree with this. You should have made up the time. The starter probably holds every group the same way, and they make up the time - probably within a hole or two - so you could have too. But who knows how possible that is - to speed up two people you don't know without being a jerk (or perceived as one).

How do you figure that your gonna "catch" the group in front of you, and what are you supposed to do when you "Catch" them, wait out in the FW on every hole?

What's the point of "catching" them in the 1st place? The group in front of them (that they were told to WAIT on) had a 4:15 Round as well, the SAME amount of time, if they had "CAUGHT" them they would have had to WAIT on them. It's obvious(to anyone that is paying attention) that they were NOT falling way behind, as the 2 total Rd times were the SAME. I would DEFINITELY write a letter to upper Management, with a cool head explaining the situation, as far as I'm concerned they owe you a RD of Golf for that garbage..... Unreal, "Hey hold up until they are off the green.....OK go ahead now, but I expect you to catch them to the point that you are waiting in the fairway on every hole". Bah I'm definitely not getting this at all, 4:15 is NOT a long round on a BUSY Muni course, especially a 4some with 2 short hitting women.

[nike_golf]

  muzz said:

How do you figure that your gonna "catch" the group in front of you, and what are you supposed to do when you "Catch" them, wait out in the FW on every hole?

Your place on the course is directly behind the group in front of you.

So, basically, yes, they should have caught the group ahead to the point that they were waiting a bit. The OP's group had no wait on any hole at any time. If there is a similar size group ahead of you by only a hole, then your group should at least be waiting for them for a minute or two while the group ahead is finishing up on a par three green. No? Even that didn't sound like it was happening. That's a clear indication of being too far behind and/or just too plain slow. You should always expect a little waiting during a round, especially if it's a course full of golfers. Having open fairways and greens EVERY hole is a sign that you're probably moving too slowly.

[muzz]

You make ZERO sense man, sorry that your a pro 5.8

Let me rush to catch the group in front of me so I can wait in EVERY single FW, never mind that the group in front of me played in 4:15 and I played in 4:15, which means that I was just as close as the minute the STARTER(you know him, he sets the spacing)allowed me to tee off.

Lord knows I should have rushed to catch them so that I was waiting in the FW, and then when I'm on the green the fools behind me that are in a hurry can land their ball on the green while I'm putting, I won't mind as long as it doesn't stop or put a ball mark in my line.....:rolleyes:

"You should always expect a little waiting during a round, especially if it's a course full of golfers. Having open fairways and greens EVERY hole is a sign that you're probably moving too slowly."

Where do you want them to go?
Rush so that there are THREE foursomes on the tee at the same time?

Sorry there Tiger, I guess we'll have to agree that we disagree on this one......glad to know that your playing in the Masters though!

[Cussin hacker]

Nike.....you play In MN and I'd say your courses are much diffrent than the OP's course in LA. So say he caught up the 15 minutes in a hole or two that still leaves the players behide them 16 holes to bitch about slow play. You and others are way off on this matter. I'm all for faster play, but it has never made since to me for Marshalls to have every one up each others asses on every hole. Courses do this to pack as many people on the course they can for the dollars. It makes for an unpleasent day for everyone when it's like that.. I see nothing wrong with what the OP did.

[DocWu1948]

I am glad that the original poster is writing a letter. I hope the gals he played with also escalate the issue. They ought to get a free round or two for being treated like that.

We played today in 4:00. I was glad for the occasional waits to tee off or hit an approach because I also walked 18 on Monday on an empty course with another guy in 3 hours, and I was still tired. The posted times around here range from 4:10 to 4:20.

[nike_golf]

  muzz said:

You make ZERO sense man, sorry that your a pro 5.8

You're failing to fully understand.

When your group is doing NO waiting (open FW's and greens), but yet there is a group on your tail, common sense should kick in and say that your group is probably a bit too slow. Is that hard to understand? I've never said that you should kick it in the butt every hole to constantly be right on top of the group ahead of you. My main point is that you shouldn't be a whole hole behind the group in front of you while having a group on your tail for most of the round. I'm sorry, but all signs point to the OP's group being the slow one. Like I've said, through no fault of his own. This isn't that complicated to figure out.

[zeg]

  nike_golf said:

Your place on the course is directly behind the group in front of you.

If you started directly behind them, then yes. Otherwise just keep up.

  nike_golf said:

You should always expect a little waiting during a round, especially if it's a course full of golfers. Having open fairways and greens EVERY hole is a sign that you're probably moving too slowly.

No. You should expect a little waiting during a round IF it's a course full of golfers. If it's not full, and you start with a clear hole ahead, play at a reasonable pace. If the group ahead is also playing a reasonable pace, there's no reason you'll ever catch them. Fourputt (I think) said it: it's golf, not a marathon. If you are out trying to play 3 hour rounds, good for you, but that's clearly faster than normal, at least for the majority who've spoken up here. I don't think it's at all reasonable to criticize a group for not keeping up with the fastest conceivable 4-player round.

If the OP wants to pipe in with a pace of play standard for the course in question, that'd be a useful piece of information for the discussion. I'll wager a hefty sum that the pro shop has no problem with a 4:15 round, though.

[nike_golf]

  Cussin hacker said:

Nike.....you play In MN and I'd say your courses are much diffrent than the OP's course in LA. So say he caught up the 15 minutes in a hole or two that still leaves the players behide them 16 holes to bitch about slow play. You and others are way off on this matter. I'm all for faster play, but it has never made since to me for Marshalls to have every one up each others asses on every hole. Courses do this to pack as many people on the course they can for the dollars. It makes for an unpleasent day for everyone when it's like that.. I see nothing wrong with what the OP did.

I just got back from a golf vacation in the Gulf Shores, Alabama area. I don't always golf in Minnesota. I've golfed in many states. I've golfed in many tournaments. Golfed w/ many people of various skill levels. I've played on goat tracks to courses that the PGA guys have played.

I've been around and have seen plenty. While I understand what you're saying, you're still missing some things too. If the OP's group had caught up to and (correctly) played right behind the group in front of them, then the group following the OP's group SHOULD and probably WOULD have realized that there was nothing the OP's group could do. They were playing as fast as the group ahead of them would allow them too, thusly, they were in their correct place on the course. That's why I stated earlier in this thread that a lot of times, letting groups play through often doesn't help that faster group. Simply because the course is full of golfers, and there is simply no place for the faster group to go. So letting them play through, usually makes no sense. Yes, I realize that many courses pack as many golfers onto the course as they can, and in that lies a big part of the problem, but you just have to deal w/ it the best way you can. That often involves a good deal of waiting, which does suck, but, it's just the way it is.

[Cussin hacker]

Your cool Nike so I'll just say we will agree to disagree :o)

[nike_golf]

  Cussin hacker said:

Your cool Nike so I'll just say we will agree to disagree :o)

I can agree to that.

[Shindig]

  nike_golf said:

I can agree to that.

We'll also find out soon what the course considers an acceptable pace of play, assuming any of the four that I wrote to respond.

[Fourputt]

  nike_golf said:

I just got back from a golf vacation in the Gulf Shores, Alabama area. I don't always golf in Minnesota. I've golfed in many states. I've golfed in many tournaments. Golfed w/ many people of various skill levels. I've played on goat tracks to courses that the PGA guys have played.

There is still a flaw to your analysis. Because of the way that the starter put the OP's group off, this course apparently does NOT "pack them on". All the course should ask that they maintain their place on the course. They did that. You are completely wrong to think that a player has any other responsibility in this matter. Despite the quote in my sig, they are not automatically required to be on the heels of the group in front if they weren't started that way.

On the course where I work, groups are expected to maintain the starting interval, not sniff each other's rectums. If they do close the gap, fine, but they will NOT be approached by a course assistant if they are in their proper place on the course. Every cart has a placard on it with the starting time for the group. The course assistants have a matrix which show the times that each group should be at each hole based on their starting times. As long as they are within a 5 minute window of that time, then a gap here or there doesn't matter. All that indicates is that some fast group is doing a lot of waiting. The ranger will only counsel them if there is both a gap in front AND they are outside of the required time. You have said before that you don't play on very busy courses as a rule. If you did you would have a much better appreciation for how it works in most of this country. My course is the busiest in Colorado, so I have some idea of what I'm talking about. We work hard to manage pace of play 7 days a week, and the policies I've referred to work most of the time. When it fails, it isn't because of the policy, but because of golfers who just can't seem to be wheedled, cajoled, or browbeaten into cooperating. We have even been forced to ask players to leave after the front 9 because they wouldn't follow our policies, but that is an extreme case. We have also asked groups pick up and move up to their proper place. But they never get harassed if they are in their proper time slot.

[nike_golf]

  Shindig said:

We'll also find out soon what the course considers an acceptable pace of play, assuming any of the four that I wrote to respond.

You can still interpret that in different ways as well, however.

Actually, it makes little difference to me what the "acceptable pace of play" for a course says. If the course is stacked full w/ groups and each group is on top of each other and is thusly, waiting on every hole, how can each group meet that "acceptable pace of play" quota? Each group is probably going to be out there for 5 plus hours, easily. On the other hand, if a group has "free reign" on a given course, I would expect that group to beat that "acceptable pace of play" quota. Every situation and every course is different. To me, acceptable pace of play is just a number the course puts out there. Does anyone really follow it and/or abide by it? "Hey guys, hurry up, we're averaging 15 minutes per hole." I doubt that gets said amongst most golf groups. If a group is too slow, the marshal's/ranger's SHOULD and NEED to take proper action. Sadly, I don't believe that happens enough.

  Fourputt said:

There is still a flaw to your analysis. Because of the way that the starter put the OP's group off, this course apparently does NOT "pack them on". All the course should ask that they maintain their place on the course. They did that. You are completely wrong to think that a player has any other responsibility in this matter. Despite the quote in my sig, they are not automatically required to be on the heels of the group in front if they weren't started that way.

When did I say I don't play on busy courses?

That being said, I know I don't have the extensive knowledge of someone such as yourself on this matter. However, I'm going on what's been relayed to us via the OP's original post. He had a full hole, all round long, between them and the next group. Regardless of starting position, that still says something. I'll always feel that way. They were obviously holding up the group behind them for most of the round. A marshal DID talk to them and told them they were too slow. The OP himself said he has played a round on that course in an hour LESS than it took them that day. He had two short hitting (slow) women in his group. Using all of that somewhat limited information, I would simply say they probably were a bit slow. I understand how the big courses do things. As I've said, I've been in many different areas of the country and on some real nice, and big courses. (Recently an Arnold Palmer signature course in 'Bama) As I've said, I get it. Am I an expert? Of course not, but as I've said before, most of this isn't rocket science.

[Fourputt]

  nike_golf said:

When did I say I don't play on busy courses?

A couple of months back in another thread. You said something to the effect that you were glad you didn't have to deal with the crowded courses that some of the rest of us were talking about. I don't remember what thread it was now.

[nike_golf]

  Fourputt said:

A couple of months back in another thread. You said something to the effect that you were glad you didn't have to deal with the crowded courses that some of the rest of us were talking about. I don't remember what thread it was now.

Oh, ok. It is basically true, as I live in a pretty rural area and my membership is to a semi-private course in a town of about 10,000. But, as I've said before, I venture out quite often to bigger cities and thusly, bigger courses.

(Minneapolis area, Sioux Falls S.D., Des Moines, etc) Add to that, my golf vacations down south every year to golf rich areas of Alabama, Arkansas, and Florida.

[brn14me]

I think Nike Golf has a very valid point about having an opening the entire round and players up your butt. That makes me very uncomfortable and makes me play faster. I hate holding people up. If I'm waiting on a group and there are others right behind me, so be it.......but if there's something I can do to speed up play I will.

From what it sounds like in this case tho is even if there wasn't a gap the people behind would've still been hitting into them because they were a**holes.

And hitting into the group in front of you ONE TIME being forgivable.......whew. I have done this but not on purpose. I'm a very high handicapper and a few months back I must've hit the sweet spot, with good timing, and excellent balance or whatever because I nailed my 3 wood farther than ever! And it went into the group in front of me. I didn't yell "fore" because there was no way my ball was going to go that far (so i thought). I didn't hit anyone but I felt very bad and embarrassed when I saw where it landed which sucked because it was probably the best shot, mechanically, i've ever had.

[Ignorant]

  nike_golf said:

You're failing to fully understand.

Ok, let us assume OP's flight would have speeded up a bit and reached the flight ahead of them. Would the group behind them in that case not have shot their balls into OP's flight? Would that group have been happy seeing that there was no open FW between the two groups in front of them? Maybe but I doubt it.

What I must criticise heavily is the cooperation between the ranger and the starter. If it was really the intention (and common practise on that course) of the starter to create a certain interval between flights, how the hell the ranger did not know that and support it? On the other hand, I cannot see ANY reason why there should be a free par4 green in front of a flight before it can tee off, unless it is a 275 yds hole where most people can reach the green from the tee. I wonder what was keeping the group in front of OP's group up as they seemed to play slower than the group behind OP's group. Also I wonder if there were other groups behind waiting for that one. If there were, then OP's group AND the group in front of them were both slow compared to the groups behind them . What would be interesting to know is the average or recommended time on that particular course. Would that be more than 4:15 or less? IMO 4:15 with one walking and others riding is very slow, given that they did not have to wait. Though I can understand they did not pace up the play as they were not left behind from the preceding group. And finally, I do not understand why OP did not take a cart and drive to the group behind them LATEST after the 2nd incident. I would have done that for sure.

  nike_golf said:

You can still interpret that in different ways as well, however.

You picked up the REAL issue and that is how courses actually define the 'acceptable pace of play'. Are they expecting that in ideal situation nobody has to wait but once next tee is reached one can tee off right away with the preceding group in sight but out of range? Or are they calculating some waiting into that time? If latter, then the course is simply too packed.

What seems to be even more hilarious is that on some courses there are different 'acceptable pace of play' times for flights of 2, 3 and 4. Now tell me how a flight of 3 can reach that time when starting behind 10 flights of 4 ?? Maybe fourputt could shed some light into this issue, being close to the actual operation.