My Swing (saevel25)

[saevel25]

@mvmac or @iacas

I was just looking at this image. And seeing a pretty good gap between my left arm and my chest. Would keeping the left arm more tight to the chest help with turn rates?

I was taking some easy swings tonight and when I did this I found that I really couldn't over swing as much because of where the left arm was positioned. I believe it was because it forced me to just rotate to complete my backswing instead of moving my hands so much.

I was also noticing that when I did this that it helped me get into a better position at A3. What is your take on this as well? Is this something you see as well with other students?

Thanks

[dbrock504]

No the Push is a block. Its not like I am slightly leaving them out to the right. I am pushing them WAY out to the right. Example, tonight I was aiming to go over a fairway bunker. So I aimed so the ball would start over the left edge of it. I pushed it about 10 degrees to the right into a tree that was about 15 yards  away from the tee box.

Yes its with the irons as well, but to less extreme because they are irons and they don't go as far. Blocks and hooks, sounds like i am boxing, not good for golf.

May I make a suggestion? You have my friends identical swing. He had this same problem as well. This is what I told him, and it fixed it. You're swing is too flat for my liking. Set a tee 12" behind your ball and bring that club head STRAIGHT back over that tee and let the club naturally lift off the ground. In picture #1 there, your hands are already getting that club too flat for my liking. Here is a comparison for you

The club is at a 45* angle or so in pic 2. I would rather it be around 70* or so. On pic 3, your hands are pushed so far off your body that you're going to come outside inside now. I figured you wouldn't believe me unless I provided some proof, so here is my guy I like to model after, Paul Casey to mirror your pic 3.

If I stuck a glove under his right or left arm, the glove would not fall out. If I stuck a glove under either of your arms, the glove would fall out. Notice the angle of his LEFT arm vs your angle. You just a bit too flat IMO.

[dbrock504]

Here is another example of what I'm talking about

[saevel25]

I appreciate your advice,

Not a big fan of that drill. It tends to create the opposite effect I want. I don't want to move my hands earlier in the golf swing. I want to move them later, but just more upward, instead of inward. The depth for my hands will be created by the turn I make.

I figured you wouldn't believe me unless I provided some proof, so here is my guy I like to model after, Paul Casey to mirror your pic 3.

If I stuck a glove under his right or left arm, the glove would not fall out. If I stuck a glove under either of your arms, the glove would fall out. Notice the angle of his LEFT arm vs your angle. You just a bit too flat IMO.

Yea that is what I am trying to fix. I want my position at the top to be similar to that image. I don't believe the drill you gave me will help in my case.

Don't get defensive this quick man. I appreciate your help, but if I don't agree with what you, or don't think the tip will help in my case doesn't mean it wont help someone else.

[dbrock504]

I appreciate your advice,

Not a big fan of that drill. It tends to create the opposite effect I want. I don't want to move my hands earlier in the golf swing. I want to move them later, but just more upward, instead of inward. The depth for my hands will be created by the turn I make.

Yea that is what I am trying to fix. I want my position at the top to be similar to that image. I don't believe the drill you gave me will help in my case.

Don't get defensive this quick man. I appreciate your help, but if I don't agree with what you, or don't think the tip will help in my case doesn't mean it wont help someone else.

This is going to come off defensive, but I'm really not. I just don't know how to say it without saying it. (I'm very candid and direct)

Although I do have a high handicap at the moment (I need to recalculate it), I was taught these drills by a PGA Certified instructor. Not only by him, but a personal friend who played on the senior tour for a little bit and is still a scratch golfer. I feel as if people read my 20.4 hcp and say "oh this kid is an idiot". These drills work. They have worked for me, and my friends that I have shown who have this similar issue. I didn't pay $75/hr for nothing. But I'm not taking it personally or defensive although it sounds like I am. It is totally up to you. If you want to try it, what do you have to loose? If you don't want to try it, what do you have to gain? Point is, can't hurt, can it? If you don't, doesn't hurt my feelings. You are only hurting your self by not knowing what could have been.

First- EXACTLY! I want you to move your hands later and upward in the golf swing, not pulling them back and across in this shape ----> ( your body as your picture 2 indicates you are doing. I want you to take a tee and put it 12" behind the ball and bring the club straight back over the tee in this shape ----> |. DO NOT break your wrists until you naturally feel that it is time. Believe me, you will feel when, and it's pretty late (about 60-70% up the backswing or so). DO NOT break your wrists out or in. Break them straight upward. That will steepen your swing plane. It's kind of obvious if you think about it. Warning, if you are chunking the heck out of it, you are too steep.

Second- This is in your swing thread. It won't help anyone else right now. I am comparing Paul Casey to YOU. If you don't want to do it, don't do it man. Really, it's no skin off my nose and I know you appreciate the advice regardless. If I had an issue and asked for help and someone sent me side by sides of a pro with exact instructions to fix my issue, I would spend $10 and go get me a large bucket at my nearest range. If it works, hey cool, it works! Awesome! If it doesn't work. Hey, I tried it. It didn't work for me. Just me though...

I don't like that last sentence. How do you know? Have you tried to do exactly what I've told you? Don't know 'till you try it! It seems as if you don't want to take advice from a 20 hcp. That's cool; I understand. No hard feelings at all.

[saevel25]

This is going to come off defensive, but I'm really not. I just don't know how to say it without saying it. (I'm very candid and direct)

Not offensive. Stop thinking you offend everyone, you don't.

Although I do have a high handicap at the moment (I need to recalculate it), I was taught these drills by a PGA Certified instructor. Not only by him, but a personal friend who played on the senior tour for a little bit and is still a scratch golfer. I feel as if people read my 20.4 hcp and say "oh this kid is an idiot". These drills work. They have worked for me, and my friends that I have shown who have this similar issue. I didn't pay $75/hr for nothing. But I'm not taking it personally or defensive although it sounds like I am. It is totally up to you. If you want to try it, what do you have to loose? If you don't want to try it, what do you have to gain? Point is, can't hurt, can it? If you don't, doesn't hurt my feelings. You are only hurting your self by not knowing what could have been.

PGA certified doesn't many anything to me. I don't know that instructors knowledge of the golf swing. I don't know their teaching style. BUT, PGA certified instructors can be wrong. Scratch golfer doesn't mean much to me ether. Many PGA pro golfers can't teach a golf swing at all. They can play very good golf. Big difference between the two.

I don't think your an idiot because of your handicap. I don't think your an idiot period.

What do I have to loose, my time. It could develop a motion in my game that hurts my swing and undermines my progress. So yea it can hurt my swing. Practicing something that is wrong can hurt my swing.

I don't like that last sentence. How do you know? Have you tried to do exactly what I've told you? Don't know 'till you try it! It seems as if you don't want to take advice from a 20 hcp. That's cool; I understand. No hard feelings at all.

Because I do. Yes because i have tried it before. I tried it when I was working on my golf swing by reading golf magazines and watching the golf channel. Its the tip that has lead me to my current swing. So there is a reason why I don't want to use that swing, It already doesn't work for me.

[iacas]

In and up (with structure), Matt. You're on it.

And seriously, practice when you practice, play when you play. Half backswings might be a "feel" for playing (but you have to commit to it, and you're a better golfer than most if you can…).

[dbrock504]

PGA certified doesn't many anything to me. I don't know that instructors knowledge of the golf swing. I don't know their teaching style. BUT, PGA certified instructors can be wrong. Scratch golfer doesn't mean much to me ether. Many PGA pro golfers can't teach a golf swing at all. They can play very good golf. Big difference between the two.

I don't think your an idiot because of your handicap. I don't think your an idiot period.

What do I have to loose, my time. It could develop a motion in my game that hurts my swing and undermines my progress. So yea it can hurt my swing. Practicing something that is wrong can hurt my swing.

Because I do. Yes because i have tried it before. I tried it when I was working on my golf swing by reading golf magazines and watching the golf channel. Its the tip that has lead me to my current swing. So there is a reason why I don't want to use that swing, It already doesn't work for me.

He's not just a PGA Certified instructor. He was named the STPGA Coach of the Year in 2008. (Southern Texas). This guy is not just a scratch golfer, he played on the senior tour, then his daughter had a surprise baby forcing him to stop.

The way you look at things absolutely baffles me. It's your opinion and you are entitled to it, however I think you are wrong. It literally takes 2 minutes to see if it is effective. For me it was instantly. You try it and it works, or you stop doing it, but what I can tell you is what you are doing right now is wrong and I proved it with side by sides of a pro golfer. It doesn't get any better than that as far as help goes. Once again, you don't want to try it, don't. You sure are closed minded for someone who is hitting fat shots, thin shots, pushes, hooks. I'm not a 6.7 hcp, but I don't do any of that. If I was hitting like that, I would do anything someone told me to do. Good luck

[saevel25]

He's not just a PGA Certified instructor. He was named the STPGA Coach of the Year in 2008. (Southern Texas). This guy is not just a scratch golfer, he played on the senior tour, then his daughter had a surprise baby forcing him to stop.

That award is suppose to mean something to me?  I don't know the guy, I don't know his teaching style. So I am not going to just jump head first into what you are saying because you happen to say he's won an award.

What I did do was. I read what you posted carefully. I thought about it, and decided it isn't something I want to do. You know what, tough shit man. It doesn't speak bad on you. You constantly harping about it does. Get over it.

The way you look at things absolutely baffles me. It's your opinion and you are entitled to it, however I think you are wrong. It literally takes 2 minutes to see if it is effective. For me it was instantly. You try it and it works, or you stop doing it, but what I can tell you is what you are doing right now is wrong and I proved it with side by sides of a pro golfer. It doesn't get any better than that as far as help goes. Once again, you don't want to try it, don't. You sure are closed minded for someone who is hitting fat shots, thin shots, pushes, hooks. I'm not a 6.7 hcp, but I don't do any of that. If I was hitting like that, I would do anything someone told me to do. Good luck

I know what I am doing is wrong, that is why I am fixing it. I am not going to fix it by introducing a movement that would not benefit my swing.

Heck put Furyk next to Casey, which one is right? I might say Furyk since he's had a better career. So, just because you happen to show a pro picture, who happens to have a good position at the top doesn't prove me wrong. It just proves that my swing is not where I want it to be.

No closed minded would be calling you an idiot with out giving you this much attention. I gave it consideration, I decided not to move forward with it. That isn't being closed minded, that is making a decision based on what I want to do with my swing change progression.

[dbrock504]

That award is suppose to mean something to me?  I don't know the guy, I don't know his teaching style. So I am not going to just jump head first into what you are saying because you happen to say he's won an award.

What I did do was. I read what you posted carefully. I thought about it, and decided it isn't something I want to do. You know what, tough shit man. It doesn't speak bad on you. You constantly harping about it does. Get over it.

I know what I am doing is wrong, that is why I am fixing it. I am not going to fix it by introducing a movement that would not benefit my swing.

Heck put Furyk next to Casey, which one is right? I might say Furyk since he's had a better career. So, just because you happen to show a pro picture, who happens to have a good position at the top doesn't prove me wrong. It just proves that my swing is not where I want it to be.

No closed minded would be calling you an idiot with out giving you this much attention. I gave it consideration, I decided not to move forward with it. That isn't being closed minded, that is making a decision based on what I want to do with my swing change progression.

You act like I'm crying because you won't take my advice. I suppose I was just anticipating someone who is having serious issues to be more receptive to advice and not be so dismissive. You never tried it on the range, so you have no idea how it is going to effect you although you think you do behind your keyboard. Therefore, that to me is ignorant. But hey, like I said, your swing. Doesn't bother me if you have issues.

P.S. Paul Casey is much better than any of us here and has a "picture perfect" swing that I like to model after. Furyk is better at putting the ball in the hole, but Casey has much better textbook mechanics. The side by sides prove your swing is not where it should be based on textbook mechanics that allow for a more pure and consistent shot.

[14ledo81]

You act like I'm crying because you won't take my advice. I suppose I was just anticipating someone who is having serious issues to be more receptive to advice and not be so dismissive. You never tried it on the range, so you have no idea how it is going to effect you although you think you do behind your keyboard. Therefore, that to me is ignorant. But hey, like I said, your swing. Doesn't bother me if you have issues.

P.S. Paul Casey is much better than any of us here and has a "picture perfect" swing that I like to model after. Furyk is better at putting the ball in the hole, but Casey has much better textbook mechanics. The side by sides prove your swing is not where it should be based on textbook mechanics that allow for a more pure and consistent shot.

Maybe, but it is apparent that something is bothering you about this.  Let it go. @saevel25 has good instruction already.

[Golfingdad]

You try it and it works, or you stop doing it

That's not how it works.  You don't just try things on a whim and then if they don't work abandon them.  If you stick around on this website awhile you'll read in several places that REAL CHANGES TAKE TIME.  If you try something once or twice and it "doesn't work" and then you stop, it's just as likely you quit on something that was going to help than something that was hurting you.

I've been improving CONSTANTLY since I joined this site (and incidentally, started getting instruction from the same guys that are teaching Matt) because:

• I trust my teachers and what they are telling me to do.
• I work hard at what they are telling me to do and I STICK WITH IT.
• I don't move on to something else until after they are satisfied that what I'm working on is not my top priority anymore.

If you haven't already seen it, try this thread on for size, cuz it's a doozy: http://thesandtrap.com/t/54840/simple-specific-slow-short-and-success-the-five-s-s-of-great-practice/0_30

Cheers.

[dbrock504]

Maybe, but it is apparent that something is bothering you about this.  Let it go.  @saevel25 has good instruction already.

It's bothering me because he is essentially calling me an idiot. You don't have to actually call me an idiot to call me an idiot. I give him advice with proof, and sitting behind his computer, within 22 minutes, his response is no. I realize he has tried it in the past, but it might work now. He seems to change his habits often. One day he is hitting thin, the next day, fat. He may have good instruction, but clearly it isn't working given his recent trips to the course and his constant issues of pushing and other things he is indicating. Erik might be a great coach, but all I see him doing is giving words of encouragement and not much actual advice with proof. "Matt. You're on it." Believe me buddy, I have let it go. Like I said 4 times, it doesn't bother me if his game doesn't improve. I'm just trying to help.

[iacas]

He's not just a PGA Certified instructor. He was named the STPGA Coach of the Year in 2008. (Southern Texas). This guy is not just a scratch golfer, he played on the senior tour, then his daughter had a surprise baby forcing him to stop.

I don't think crap like that matters. If it did, however:

• Dave (one of Matt's instructors) is the WNY PGA Section Teacher of the Year.
• Dave is one of the co-creators of the 5 Simple Keys system.
• I am the Director of Instructor Development for 5SK.
• Dave was a fully exempt member of the Web.com Tour.
• 5SK/PureStrike has been the best-selling golf DVD on the market every month since its release almost two years ago.
• Together, we've trained 100 instructors. People pay US to teach them how to teach better.
• Matt's handicap has dropped quite a bit since joining this site. He's worked with us directly a pretty sparse amount of time.

Again, crap like that does not matter to me. I wish it didn't matter to most golfers. They're hurting themselves by thinking that awards mean something. They don't. Awards, Top 100 lists, etc. are primarily about marketing and politics.

I prefer for things to be about the quality of the information. Matt does too. It's okay if awards matter to you, but you have to realize and accept that they don't matter to everyone.

It literally takes 2 minutes to see if it is effective. For me it was instantly. You try it and it works, or you stop doing it, but what I can tell you is what you are doing right now is wrong and I proved it with side by sides of a pro golfer.

That sounds like a great way to waste two minutes, IMO. Every club swings back, up, and in. Swinging "straight back" makes no sense.

You sure are closed minded for someone who is hitting fat shots, thin shots, pushes, hooks. I'm not a 6.7 hcp, but I don't do any of that. If I was hitting like that, I would do anything someone told me to do. Good luck

I doubt very much that you hit the ball solidly every time. Also, what's "thin" to Matt is probably not the same level as what's "thin" to you.

Now, you may take this as a big slam. It's not. It's simply explaining a position. I really encourage you to read a lot of the material here. Read it. Ask questions. Decide for yourself.

---

It's bothering me because he is essentially calling me an idiot.

He is not. Get past that. He is tell you that he does not accept your advice or your reasoning behind it.

I give him advice with proof, and sitting behind his computer, within 22 minutes, his response is no.

What proof have you offered? A single picture of Paul Casey? Guess what? I could post pictures of Tiger or others that are "proof" of the opposite. Pictures alone are weak forms of "proof."

Erik might be a great coach, but all I see him doing is giving words of encouragement and not much actual advice with proof. "Matt. You're on it."

Because Matt knows what he has to work on (and HOW to work on it), and so anything more I would have to say could just muddy the waters.

[dbrock504]

That's not how it works.  You don't just try things on a whim and then if they don't work abandon them.  If you stick around on this website awhile you'll read in several places that REAL CHANGES TAKE TIME.  If you try something once or twice and it "doesn't work" and then you stop, it's just as likely you quit on something that was going to help than something that was hurting you.

I've been improving CONSTANTLY since I joined this site (and incidentally, started getting instruction from the same guys that are teaching Matt) because:

I trust my teachers and what they are telling me to do.

I work hard at what they are telling me to do and I STICK WITH IT.

I don't move on to something else until after they are satisfied that what I'm working on is not my top priority anymore.

If you haven't already seen it, try this thread on for size, cuz it's a doozy: http://thesandtrap.com/t/54840/simple-specific-slow-short-and-success-the-five-s-s-of-great-practice/0_30

Cheers.

I understand that point of view, however I see things differently. One example, the last bullet, I don't move on until I feel it is not my top priority anymore, not my coach. I hire my coach to help me in the process of becoming a better player. If I don't feel as if I have advanced because it isn't translating to the course, I won't stop working on that aspect regardless if he thinks it isn't my top priority anymore. I will give that link a look. Thanks.

[Golfingdad]

It's bothering me because he is essentially calling me an idiot. You don't have to actually call me an idiot to call me an idiot. I give him advice with proof, and sitting behind his computer, within 22 minutes, his response is no. I realize he has tried it in the past, but it might work now. He seems to change his habits often. One day he is hitting thin, the next day, fat. He may have good instruction, but clearly it isn't working given his recent trips to the course and his constant issues of pushing and other things he is indicating. Erik might be a great coach, but all I see him doing is giving words of encouragement and not much actual advice with proof. "Matt. You're on it." Believe me buddy, I have let it go. Like I said 4 times, it doesn't bother me if his game doesn't improve. I'm just trying to help.

No he didn't.  He was very polite in saying that he appreciated the advice but wasn't going to use it.  That's not calling you an idiot, it's simply saying no thanks.  If you're going to keep pushing for more responses after that, then, well, it makes it harder for people to continue being polite.

It's like asking a girl out on a date.  If she says she's busy Friday and offers no alternative, you recognize that its her polite way of saying shes not interested.  You don't keep at it with "well, then, how about Saturday?  Or Sunday? Or next week?"  Because, then you are forcing her hand.  Now, to avoid being a total liar she's forced to be blunt, and potentially hurt your feelings.  But that isn't her fault.

I recognize that I don't know as much as most others, so the few times I come on these threads and give advice, I just throw it out there and leave it.  If they want to give it a try, then great.  If not, then that's great too.

I will give that link a look. Thanks.

Yeah, definitely do that.  It's a great thread.

[saevel25]

You act like I'm crying because you won't take my advice. I suppose I was just anticipating someone who is having serious issues to be more receptive to advice and not be so dismissive. You never tried it on the range, so you have no idea how it is going to effect you although you think you do behind your keyboard. Therefore, that to me is ignorant. But hey, like I said, your swing. Doesn't bother me if you have issues.

P.S. Paul Casey is much better than any of us here and has a "picture perfect" swing that I like to model after. Furyk is better at putting the ball in the hole, but Casey has much better textbook mechanics. The side by sides prove your swing is not where it should be based on textbook mechanics that allow for a more pure and consistent shot.

Like I said I never ignored your post. I read it, I gave my opinion on the matter. If I wanted to ignore it I would have told you to take that evil blasphemous crap and go away. I didn't. I gave you a considerable amount of attention on it.

Yea that is why I am fixing my swing. I've said that already. Just because

That's not how it works.  You don't just try things on a whim and then if they don't work abandon them.  If you stick around on this website awhile you'll read in several places that REAL CHANGES TAKE TIME.  If you try something once or twice and it "doesn't work" and then you stop, it's just as likely you quit on something that was going to help than something that was hurting you.

Absolutely correct

It's bothering me because he is essentially calling me an idiot. You don't have to actually call me an idiot to call me an idiot. I give him advice with proof, and sitting behind his computer, within 22 minutes, his response is no. I realize he has tried it in the past, but it might work now. He seems to change his habits often. One day he is hitting thin, the next day, fat. He may have good instruction, but clearly it isn't working given his recent trips to the course and his constant issues of pushing and other things he is indicating. Erik might be a great coach, but all I see him doing is giving words of encouragement and not much actual advice with proof. "Matt. You're on it." Believe me buddy, I have let it go. Like I said 4 times, it doesn't bother me if his game doesn't improve. I'm just trying to help.

Just because I don't want to do something doesn't make you an idiot. It just means I don't want to do something. If that makes you feel like an idiot, then that is your own problem. Get over yourself.

Note, thin and fat are primarily caused by the same swing fault. It is just over compensation from having the other tendency.

It has worked, because my handicap before my instruction was a 12. Now its mid 6's. That drop happened over a 6 month period.

Erik doesn't have all day sitting at a computer to look at the hundreds of swings on this forum. If I ask him a question he is pretty good at responding. That is fine with me. I don't need him baby sitting me all day.

[dbrock504]

I don't think crap like that matters. If it did, however:

Dave (one of Matt's instructors) is the WNY PGA Section Teacher of the Year.

Dave is one of the co-creators of the 5 Simple Keys system.

I am the Director of Instructor Development for 5SK.

Dave was a fully exempt member of the Web.com Tour.

5SK/PureStrike has been the best-selling golf DVD on the market every month since its release almost two years ago.

Together, we've trained 100 instructors. People pay US to teach them how to teach better.

Matt's handicap has dropped quite a bit since joining this site. He's worked with us directly a pretty sparse amount of time.

Again, crap like that does not matter to me. I wish it didn't matter to most golfers. They're hurting themselves by thinking that awards mean something. They don't. Awards, Top 100 lists, etc. are primarily about marketing and politics.

I prefer for things to be about the quality of the information. Matt does too. It's okay if awards matter to you, but you have to realize and accept that they don't matter to everyone.

That sounds like a great way to waste two minutes, IMO. Every club swings back, up, and in. Swinging "straight back" makes no sense.

I doubt very much that you hit the ball solidly every time. Also, what's "thin" to Matt is probably not the same level as what's "thin" to you.

Now, you may take this as a big slam. It's not. It's simply explaining a position. I really encourage you to read a lot of the material here. Read it. Ask questions. Decide for yourself.

The first sentence is a matter of opinion. Those achievements your bulleted tell me it is a proven and respected system.

I also prefer for things to be about the quality of the information. But what is quality information? My point is, certain things work for certain people. What you define as quality info could be totally different that what I see as quality info. You are misunderstanding the swinging straight back. See the last photo I posted of Paul Casey. Taking the club head straight back until it naturally lifts off the ground. The reason I made sure to highlight this is because some players, including myself at one point, pull the clubs across at an angle much like this ---> ( creating a more flat back swing. This simple aspect eliminated exactly the problems Matt seems to be having.

Believe it or not, I do hit the ball solidly more often than not. Do I mess up or mishit or hit more toward the toe or heel sometimes? Yes, of course. But I am a much better ball striker than you give me credit for. Which is understandable, you don't know me nor have you seen my swing. I would caution you to start making assumptions on things you truly do not know about.

Also, what's "thin" is thin, and what is "fat" is fat. If you didn't strike the ball properly, you didn't strike the ball properly.

Matt seems to be playing right around the same scores I am playing at on my good days. However, we have different flaws. As I indicated in another post, if I lost zero balls off the tee box but continued to loose 2-3 as I am by simple mistakes and mishits into hazards or what have you, I would immediately be shooting an 80. That is another discussion in its self. I need tee box help desperately. I have never once tried to mask that fact.