Scrambling liars?

[Grumpter]

I'm not a fan of the 'must use x drives from each group' rule. I'm going to be even less of a fan if they implement that rule in the scramble I will be playing this weekend. One of our guys has never really played (besides hitting at the driving range a few times.... about 20 years ago). Poor guy just wanted to sponsor a hole to help out his co-worker but is going to end up playing as well since a group he asked to play backed out on him.

[Grumpter]

Played the scramble yesterday which was basically a 2 man scramble for our group. Thankfully they did not have the 'must use X number of drives from each member' rule but they did sell mulligans (ugh). One guy never having played while the other had played a handful of times. Our 3rd guy was a 20+ handicapper so I figured we would end up around +2 and came in at +1. 4 birdies (2 of which were all my shots) and 5 bogies. Not a bad score for such a group IMO. Nobody in our group bought mulligans which is fine by me.

They made us play from the blues for some god unknown reason. With all the recent rain it was understandably cart path only and you got zero roll on drives. The winning group came in at -10 which isn't all that impressive considering they were selling mulligans. I threw in $20 for our group to be entered into the skins figuring I was just giving my money away but we ended up being one of two groups to win a skin. If we had another player about my level and 2 of the 20+ handicapper I could easily see us giving the -10 some competition.

[Fourputt]

Side note: the last scramble I played in had four holes there were designated as closest to the pin holes. I kid you not, every marker was within 3 feet of the hole. Either there are some very good (or lucky) golfers, or everyone cheated a little on those holes.

In our Men's Club tournaments, the closest to the pin is almost always inside of 3 feet on at least 3 of the 4 par 3 holes - makes no difference if it's a scramble or individual. When you have more than 100 players hitting, the odds are that at least one will hit an exceptionally good shot. The length ranges from about 130 to 195. It seems to be won almost as often by a 4th or 5th flight handicapper as it is by a 1st flight player. [quote name="Grumpter" url="/t/34467/scrambling-liars/54#post_650585"]

I'm not a fan of the 'must use x drives from each group' rule. I'm going to be even less of a fan if they implement that rule in the scramble I will be playing this weekend. One of our guys has never really played (besides hitting at the driving range a few times.... about 20 years ago). Poor guy just wanted to sponsor a hole to help out his co-worker but is going to end up playing as well since a group he asked to play backed out on him.

[/quote] I don't like this either. We use a different method in our one Men's Club scramble each year. For the drive only, the player whose drive is selected doesn't get to play a second shot - this includes the par 3 holes. After that it's a straight scramble. That way the team doesn't get to use the "A" player's ball for both of the first 2 shots on long par 4 and par 5 holes.

[Grumpter]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I don't like this either. We use a different method in our one Men's Club scramble each year. For the drive only, the player whose drive is selected doesn't get to play a second shot - this includes the par 3 holes. After that it's a straight scramble. That way the team doesn't get to use the "A" player's ball for both of the first 2 shots on long par 4 and par 5 holes.

I like that rule even less. IMO any rule that prevents a player from hitting/using shots takes the fun out of the scramble.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Grumpter

I like that rule even less. IMO any rule that prevents a player from hitting/using shots takes the fun out of the scramble.

It's only one shot by one player per hole.  If that turns out to be the same player every hole, then you don't have much of a team.  It's a lot more fair than one drive per player per 9, because it doesn't lock you into using a short hitting "D" player's drive only on the par 3 holes or sacrificing a good drive to use a poor one.  It's more fun too, since it doesn't make you waste a good drive just because one or 2 of your group hasn't had his drive used yet.  I can tell you from experience and from feedback on both methods that the majority of players prefer being able to use any drive on any hole.

You almost have to use one of those rules in order to make it a true team effort.  Otherwise if you have one really good player and 3 average to poor ones, the good player will mostly just be playing his own ball and the others are just there for appearance.  That isn't a team and it isn't much fun for the other 3.

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

It's only one shot by one player per hole.  If that turns out to be the same player every hole, then you don't have much of a team.  It's a lot more fair than one drive per player per 9, because it doesn't lock you into using a short hitting "D" player's drive only on the par 3 holes or sacrificing a good drive to use a poor one.  It's more fun too, since it doesn't make you waste a good drive just because one or 2 of your group hasn't had his drive used yet.  I can tell you from experience and from feedback on both methods that the majority of players prefer being able to use any drive on any hole.

You almost have to use one of those rules in order to make it a true team effort.  Otherwise if you have one really good player and 3 average to poor ones, the good player will mostly just be playing his own ball and the others are just there for appearance.  That isn't a team and it isn't much fun for the other 3.

You think it's more fun for a bad golfer to be forced to use their shots and hurt the team???

I played in a scramble earlier this year where I was the worst golfer.  Didn't use many of my shots at all - a couple approaches and chips.  I had the best time I've had at a scramble.  I'd rather be 14 under with great players than 2 under using more of my shots.

It IS a team.  Every team has members that are strong and weak.  You don't give every basketball player on the court the same amount of shots.  That's crazy.

Why would it need to be a true team effort?

I hate those rules.   You should be rewarded for having the best player(s).

[Grumpter]

Quote:

You almost have to use one of those rules in order to make it a true team effort.  Otherwise if you have one really good player and 3 average to poor ones, the good player will mostly just be playing his own ball and the others are just there for appearance.  That isn't a team and it isn't much fun for the other 3.

I strongly disagree. If some of your team can't hit long they still contribute greatly by putting the ball in the fairway. This allows the 'bigger' hitters to really have a go at ripping a ball. On Saturday there were at least 5 or 6 times when it came down to me to get one in/near the fairway. On some of those shots I didn't just rip into one and either dialed back the swing or chose a lesser club to increase our chances of having a clear shot for the next hit. Just because you don't use someones shot does not mean they are not contributing.

Same works for chipping and putting. If someone is not strong at those areas them going first and giving the better players a look at how the surface of the green affects the travel of the ball. There is no doubt on Saturday my team would have scored more than a few strokes higher if we were just a 2 man team vs a 4 man team with 2 guys we barely used any shots from.

To me that's what a scramble is all about. Short hitters give the long hitters the chance to swing out of their shoes. Poor chippers/putters give the better players an increased chance of making the shot. Every once in a while the lesser players even contribute by having the best shot.

[newtogolf]

I agree that makes the best use of everyone on the team.  I'm usually the guy that hits 1st or 2nd with my goal being to get on the fairway on drives so the big hitters can go for it and give the good putters a read on the greens.  Beyond that I make my contributions on approach shots where I'm usually as accurate as anyone on the team from 120 yards out and closer.

Originally Posted by Grumpter

Quote:

I strongly disagree. If some of your team can't hit long they still contribute greatly by putting the ball in the fairway. This allows the 'bigger' hitters to really have a go at ripping a ball. On Saturday there were at least 5 or 6 times when it came down to me to get one in/near the fairway. On some of those shots I didn't just rip into one and either dialed back the swing or chose a lesser club to increase our chances of having a clear shot for the next hit. Just because you don't use someones shot does not mean they are not contributing.

Same works for chipping and putting. If someone is not strong at those areas them going first and giving the better players a look at how the surface of the green affects the travel of the ball. There is no doubt on Saturday my team would have scored more than a few strokes higher if we were just a 2 man team vs a 4 man team with 2 guys we barely used any shots from.

To me that's what a scramble is all about. Short hitters give the long hitters the chance to swing out of their shoes. Poor chippers/putters give the better players an increased chance of making the shot. Every once in a while the lesser players even contribute by having the best shot.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpter

Quote:

I strongly disagree. If some of your team can't hit long they still contribute greatly by putting the ball in the fairway. This allows the 'bigger' hitters to really have a go at ripping a ball. On Saturday there were at least 5 or 6 times when it came down to me to get one in/near the fairway. On some of those shots I didn't just rip into one and either dialed back the swing or chose a lesser club to increase our chances of having a clear shot for the next hit. Just because you don't use someones shot does not mean they are not contributing.

Same works for chipping and putting. If someone is not strong at those areas them going first and giving the better players a look at how the surface of the green affects the travel of the ball. There is no doubt on Saturday my team would have scored more than a few strokes higher if we were just a 2 man team vs a 4 man team with 2 guys we barely used any shots from.

To me that's what a scramble is all about. Short hitters give the long hitters the chance to swing out of their shoes. Poor chippers/putters give the better players an increased chance of making the shot. Every once in a while the lesser players even contribute by having the best shot.

And they can do the same thing with either method.  The skip the second shot rule just gives the team more options on every drive.

Quote:

You think it's more fun for a bad golfer to be forced to use their shots and hurt the team???

I said just the opposite.  I prefer NOT to be forced to use any shot, but to always have a choice.  Sometimes you still may choose the shorter drive, or the drive in the edge of the rough so that your "A" player can have a go at the approach shot.  There is strategy involved in in either method of play.   When there are no rules at all it can become rather boring if your "A" player is a truly excellent player.

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

When there are no rules at all it can become rather boring if your "A" player is a truly excellent player.

That's where I disagree.

You say you prefer no rules or restrictions, but then say it is no fun, or boring, for the team...

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

That's where I disagree.

You say you prefer no rules or restrictions, but then say it is no fun, or boring, for the team...

Are you actually reading what I write?

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Are you actually reading what I write?

Yes, you said it's not fun for 3 players of the scramble team if one is really good - if the good players ball is mainly played.  Then you also said it can become boring (with a good "A" player).

You also said it's not a true team game with no rules.

Did you not?

[Gresh24]

I am reading what you write.  This is what you wrote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

When there are no rules at all it can become rather boring if your "A" player is a truly excellent player.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You almost have to use one of those rules in order to make it a true team effort.  Otherwise if you have one really good player and 3 average to poor ones, the good player will mostly just be playing his own ball and the others are just there for appearance.  That isn't a team and it isn't much fun for the other 3.

[Grumpter]

Quote:

The skip the second shot rule just gives the team more options on every drive.

Not really. It gives you more options on the drive but absolutely, positively eliminates 1 player from taking a second shot on each and every hole. Total eliminated options = 18

Compare that to my group on Saturday. We used 11 of my drives (not counting par 3's), 2 from another player and 1 from the 3rd. If we had the '3 drives from each player' rule there would have been only 4 options taken away in the worst case scenario (assume we waited until the last possible moment to use the last 2 players drives).

1 hole with 3 options - unable to play a shot = 1 shot

- assume we used the shot from the player who already contributed 2 drives

2 holes with 2 options - unable to play shot = 4 shots (2 holes w/2 players not driving)

- assume we used 2 shots from the player who already contributed 1 drive

3 holes with 1 option - unable to play a stroke = 9 shots (3 holes w/3 players not driving)

Total 14 drives where someone wasn't allowed to take a swing

In reality the total options eliminated would have been less for our group because there were at least 2 holes where we could have used the drive from the player who only contributed one drive. We had a better option in my drive but the other players drive would have been useable. That would mean only 11 total options were eliminated (1 hole with 2 possible drives, 3 with 1 possible drive).

Either way I don't like either rule.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Grumpter

Quote:

Not really. It gives you more options on the drive but absolutely, positively eliminates 1 player from taking a second shot on each and every hole. Total eliminated options = 18

Compare that to my group on Saturday. We used 11 of my drives (not counting par 3's), 2 from another player and 1 from the 3rd. If we had the '3 drives from each player' rule there would have been only 4 options taken away in the worst case scenario (assume we waited until the last possible moment to use the last 2 players drives).

1 hole with 3 options - unable to play a shot = 1 shot

- assume we used the shot from the player who already contributed 2 drives

2 holes with 2 options - unable to play shot = 4 shots (2 holes w/2 players not driving)

- assume we used 2 shots from the player who already contributed 1 drive

3 holes with 1 option - unable to play a stroke = 9 shots (3 holes w/3 players not driving)

Total 14 drives where someone wasn't allowed to take a swing

In reality the total options eliminated would have been less for our group because there were at least 2 holes where we could have used the drive from the player who only contributed one drive. We had a better option in my drive but the other players drive would have been useable. That would mean only 11 total options were eliminated (1 hole with 2 possible drives, 3 with 1 possible drive).

Either way I don't like either rule.

Every time I've ever seen the use every player's drive rule, it's required to use one drive from each player on each nine holes.  That's 8 mandatory drives, and with a couple of weak players, that can be severely limiting to the team.  I never said I didn't like it this way, I simply said I preferred the restricted second shot rule instead, and so did the majority of players I know who have used both methods.

I do NOT like it when there are no restrictions at all, as it does limit the participation of the weaker golfers on the team even more than their poor shots already would.  It can turn the game into a one man show with the others just there to cheer him on.  That will inevitably tend to happen anyway, but with no shot restrictions, it just exaggerates the difference between him and the other team members.  Aside from an occasional lucky putt, the weaker players mostly just follow him around.

[jetsknicks1]

Originally Posted by Grumpter

I'm not a fan of the 'must use x drives from each group' rule. I'm going to be even less of a fan if they implement that rule in the scramble I will be playing this weekend. One of our guys has never really played (besides hitting at the driving range a few times.... about 20 years ago). Poor guy just wanted to sponsor a hole to help out his co-worker but is going to end up playing as well since a group he asked to play backed out on him.

I really hated that rule when I first started playing. I would play in scrambles connected to my job and alot of those guys took their golf waaayyy too seriously. It's not much fun standing over your ball on the 15th hole knowing that you haven't even come close to hitting a tee shot decent enough to use yet.

[Grumpter]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I do NOT like it when there are no restrictions at all, as it does limit the participation of the weaker golfers on the team even more than their poor shots already would.  It can turn the game into a one man show with the others just there to cheer him on.  That will inevitably tend to happen anyway, but with no shot restrictions, it just exaggerates the difference between him and the other team members.  Aside from an occasional lucky putt, the weaker players mostly just follow him around.

If that were the case then the scores wouldn't be so much lower than the best person on the team could shoot playing a normal round. With 1 golfer who never played, a second who rarely tried playing and a high handicapper we shaved about 12 strokes off my normal round. That was a worst case scenario in my opinion (meaning 2 players shots would be so bad they wouldn't be used 95% of the time). Give me another player of my skill and a second high handicapper and I bet we would have shaved off another 6-8 or so strokes from my average score.

Also you are equating using someones shot with it being useful. I say the weaker players job is to let the better players go for it - whether that be swinging out of their shoes on a drive, going for the 'tin cup' shot to carry water, going aggressively at the pin on an approach or getting a read from a weaker players putt. Scrambles are supposed to be about fun and seeing just how low you can go with your group.

I have never heard a weak player say they were thankful they had a '2 drive min per player' rule. I have never heard a strong player with weaker players say they were thankful they had a '2 drive min per player' rule. The only players I have known to like the rule are in groups who think they can become competitive if they can restrict groups with longer hitters. YMMV.

[camper6]

At one time in my long golf career I was in charge of setting up the teams for scrambles.

Because I belonged to the course for a long time I knew which members were long off the tee even though they didn't have a low handicap.

I always tried to make sure each team had one long hitter.  That way you didn't have to make any special rule to restrict the number of drives, etc.

That's what scrambles are all about.  Birdies and eagles.  The teams with a long hitter have an advantage.

As Moe Norman said.  Learn to hit the ball long.  Your secretary can make the putt.