Settle a bet please

[Dnew]

Long story short, we're playing Acey Duecey (winner gets $2 from everyone else, loser pays $1 to everyone else - each hole)
- threesome
- I win #18
- the two losers push (the push has been carried over for four holes)
- they want to have a put-off to decide the 'duecey' or loser

Here's the catch, one guy says I have to be in the put-off because a bet has been carried over. My position is that I won 18, so why would I have to be in a contest to see who the loser is?

What's your opinion?

[senorchipotle]

yes, you would have to be in the competition. if you lost, you would owe for holes 15, 16, and 17.

[Dnew]

Thanks for the response. I'm not arguing-- just trying to understand... what is the logic of me having to pay (assuming I lost the putt-off) for 15-17? When entering into the 18th hole, the amount rolled over becomes one lump sum including 18 for the loser (or duecey), right? And, if I did pay, that would mean I would have both won and lost the last hole? How is that possible?

When you have a playoff, the winners or losers that are tied compete. Why are all players required to compete? Because they all had the potential of winning/losing the prior holes that rolled over?

By the way, this really isn't a big deal-- we're talking about less than $20 here, but it's just the principle of the thing... Thanks in advance for the clarification.

[imtomtomim]

Wait a minute, that doesn't sound right. It was a play-off to determine who is the LOSER, not the winner right? If you won the hole, you get the prize. They were just trying to figure out who needs to lose the extra 2 bucks, correct?

[mcotter]

your friends are idiots

[zeg]

I don't know that there'll be a unique answer to this. The distinction between losing and simply not winning clouds the issue. My only golf gambling experience is in Links on the Xbox, but there, if two players tie for a skin, the whole thing pushes and everyone has a shot to win it at the next hole, whether or not they were part of the tie. I'm not sure whether there's a convention for how to extend that to this situation, since you have a "half push" on 18---the winner was outright, but the loser was a push. I think you could sensibly play one of two ways that are consistent with the concept of pushing a skin.

First is to consider both the winner and the loser as completely independent competitions that can separately push in the sense I described in the first paragraph. In that case, if there was a winner and a tie for loser, everyone would pay the winner immediately and the loser would push. If there was a loser but no winner, he'd pay everyone and the winner would push. Here, you can in fact be a winner and a loser on the same hole.

Second is to treat a tie for either winner or loser as a push for the entire hole and everything rolls to the next hole. Here, you can only be a winner or a loser, but you can't win unless someone loses outright.

There are other ways you could determine things, such as making an outright winner ineligible to also lose that hole, even if it pushes, but the accounting gets more than a little confusing. Moreover, it's not really consistent with the idea that a push drags everyone along. So IMO those two are the most reasonable methods. In either of them, you need to be involved in the playoff. In the former case, you definitely are the winner for 18 (and earlier holes if the winner was pushed) but you may also lose. In the latter, you didn't actually win anything because the hole was pushed. I don't have an opinion as to which is correct. You can probably determine which way you were playing if you look at how you decided that 14-17 were pushed. If you called someone a winner or loser when only two people tied, then you're playing the first rules. If you just rolled it over until there was both an outright winner and an outright loser, then you're playing the second.

[Three Putt]

+1
Yes...Idiots.

[treebound]

  Dnew said:

Long story short, we're playing Acey Duecey (winner gets $2 from everyone else, loser pays $1 to everyone else - each hole)

Help me understand this, and let's make it a foursome, players are Jack, John, Jane, and Jill.

Jack wins hole 1 with a 4. Jill loses hole 1 with a 7. John and Jane are both in between so their scores don't matter. So if I understand the math: John pays Jack $2, Jane pays Jack $2, Jill pays Jack $2, Jill being the hole loser pays an additional $1 to Jack and $1 each to John and Jane. So Jack collects $7, John and Jane paid $2 but received $1 so are each net $1 down. Poor Jill has shelled out $5. I think you need an accountant to keep track of all the variables along the way for subsequent holes. Jill had better win a few holes or else she could be out $90 for the day. If Jack wins every hole he could be up $126 for the day. John and Jane, if they stay in the middle, end up paying out $18 each for the day. Do you factor in handicaps and adjust the relative par for each player too? So if Jack plays scratch and John and Jane both play to a handicap of 18 and if Jill plays to a functional 36 over, on a par 4 hole Jack has to hit a 4 and John and Jane need 5's and Jill just needs a 6 to match up. This is too much work to call it a friendly game. Jill is going to starve, John and Jane will be fishing the ponds for golf balls to sell at their weekend rummage sale to make up the loss, and Jack had better be carefull or he might wind up with a flat tire on his push cart if he boasts too much. Jack had better not order the Pimento loaf sandwich in the clubhouse after the round either because Jill's cousin works in the kitchen and one can never really trust what's in a Pimento loaf. Much better to go with the meat loaf. 8-) Is it any wonder why I don't play for money?

[SteveISU]

  treebound said:

Help me understand this, and let's make it a foursome, players are Jack, John, Jane, and Jill.

Jesus Christ I think I just had a flash back to when I was taking the GRE. lol

[michaeljames92]

Perhaps try to bet with a harder system?

[treebound]

Here's a link to a set of rules :

http://golf.about.com/cs/golfterms/g..._acesduece.htm

Looks like the norm is to not carry a wager past a non-won hole.

[mrt10x]

If you are not smart enough to figure out who won your bet.. maybe you should pick an easier bet??? I know I cant begin to understand what the hell you are asking.. stick to skins :)

[Dnew]

MRT, I'm simply asking for an opinion, not a way to calculate the math. And, based on the feedback, it appears there are different ways of addressing holes that are carried over. This is a forum, and if you aren't aware, they are a 'forum' for opinions. If you can't understand the question, I think it's clear who isn't smart enough here.

[RC]

The game you play is a per hole game. Carry overs only apply if there is another hole to play. When the 18 ends, it is over -- that's my opinion. Now if your two buddies want to have an extended bet, let them have a go at it, but you are not obligated to enter that bet.

[mrt10x]

Oh I clearly said I wasnt smart enough to figure it out.

[zeg]

  treebound said:

Here's a link to a set of rules :

If you follow these rules and use carryovers, this agrees with the second possibility that I mentioned in my post. In that case, sorry, you did not win the acey on 18 since there was a tie for the deucey. Therefore you are part of the playoff and may be the deucey for all four holes, even though you had the best score on the 18th.

[Dnew]

hmmm... interesting. I thought I would have everybody on one side or the other. This was the first time (clearly) we've played this game -- seemed like fun at the time, but we should avoid it in the future or not carry over bets. Thanks for all the feedback guys -- fair warning, don't play Acey Duecey with carryovers!