Tour Pros: Draw v. Fade

[Zeph]

Many players hit a draw my rotating the arms, I don't doubt it, but that doesn't mean you have to. The only thing that matters at impact is the swingpath angle and clubface angle. You can rotate the clubface hard or keep it square to the plane like Tommy Gainey, if the clubface is 2º open to the target, it's 2º open to the target. If you are hitting a pull-draw, the clubface may be 2º shut to the target line. Again, you can rotate the living jesus out of the ball or you can close the clubface at address and keep it square to the plane, as long as it's 2º closed, that's all that matters. The ball is in contact with the face 0,0004 seconds on a golf shot. You can maybe close the clubface 1/2 or 1/4 of a degree if you rotate hard, but it's virtually nothing, and the timing is very hard to get right.

So why would hitting a fade be easier because you hold off the "release", when you can do the exact same action and hit a draw, only with a slightly different clubface angle at impact?

Hitting a draw does not require less hand action than a fade.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B of H

(I really haven't paid attention to that many players recently though...Tommy Two Gloves might have a ton of hand action but I wouldn't know)

Gainey got great hand action (or the lack of it) through impact.

[B of H]

my apologies, I was in a 'mood' yesterday and reading back over my post it came off way harsher than I intended.  The 'hacker gibbrish' was supposed to be tonque in cheek and not litteral.  I wasn't trying to get into some sort of pissing match.

yeah, I think we disagree on things perhaps but I also think there is some context and terminology misunderstandings going on here.  I don't know why anyone would want to use the hands in the golf swing conciously if they don't have to.  Big muscles are what you want controlling the golf swing and the hands are small muscles if you will.

to me the release is the un-hinging and re-hinging of the wrists after to impact.  Most of the instructors i've worked with viewed this as something that happens naturally as a result of proper timing etc....  The only instructors i've worked with that talked about actively 'releasing' the club were stan thirsk and jay davis.  Then again that might have been at a point where that is what I needed to hear though.  Thirsk in particular really wants to see the golf club work in a perfect mirror on the back and through swings (and tom watson really is proof of this) but over the years the instructors i've worked with have viewed this as a result of proper bending of the elbows and hip movement/body action if you will.  the result was similar but how you think about it is different.  If you teach amateurs to use their hands to draw the ball with a square face at impact that is fine but i'm not sure what that has to do with the OP's topic.

Ive always been told clubface angle is by far the most important aspect of direction of the shot hit.

Originally Posted by iacas

I'll skip the part that's seemingly contradictory and get to a few other parts. Helping someone transition some servers tonight, so apologies if this reply is short.

I read it well enough. I'm asking some questions and making a guess that you and I will likely disagree on some things. That guess seems to be accurate so far.

Please define "release" in the way you've been using it. There are at least two acceptable definitions, and you may have a third.

I teach people to hit draws without actively "rolling over their hands." Good luck timing that one - I don't teach it for that reason and because it tends to send the path of the club LEFT.

I'm a pretty good instructor, you know. And I work with a lot of other pretty darn good instructors...

Let me ask you this: what is the biggest determinant of the ball's initial starting direction? FWIW, I think you'll get the answer correct.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by B of H

to me the release is the un-hinging and re-hinging of the wrists after to impact

Then that's possibly a third definition (but very close to the second). The previous two were the rolling of the wrists/forearms (right crossing over left), and the TGM-specific. Most people seem to refer to the first one.

Originally Posted by B of H

If you teach amateurs to use their hands to draw the ball with a square face at impact that is fine but i'm not sure what that has to do with the OP's topic.

I don't teach that, no.

The point I'm making, boiled down simply, is this: done properly (without rolling the forearms/wrists), a draw is just as easy to control as a fade, and I could argue is actually easier to control (but will choose not to as that's not really the specific topic).

[B of H]

I was talking about misses.  for instance back in the mid-90's I was working with a guy who was also working with steve lowery  He wanted me to play a fade and used lowery as an example.  He'd rather his misses came from holding on or clearing too fast than the opposite of his arms/hands turning over too much or feeling as if he needed to let the club pass his body etc...  So to him the idea was that in an ideal shot you had everything timed properly but if you got a little off then you kind of held on too much and it produced a more pronounced fade.  If you look at lowery's swing you can see that he releases the club fully but the follow through is a 'no draw' type with the hands finishing high and the club moving back behind him in that manner.

Originally Posted by Zeph

Many players hit a draw my rotating the arms, I don't doubt it, but that doesn't mean you have to. The only thing that matters at impact is the swingpath angle and clubface angle. You can rotate the clubface hard or keep it square to the plane like Tommy Gainey, if the clubface is 2º open to the target, it's 2º open to the target. If you are hitting a pull-draw, the clubface may be 2º shut to the target line. Again, you can rotate the living jesus out of the ball or you can close the clubface at address and keep it square to the plane, as long as it's 2º closed, that's all that matters. The ball is in contact with the face 0,0004 seconds on a golf shot. You can maybe close the clubface 1/2 or 1/4 of a degree if you rotate hard, but it's virtually nothing, and the timing is very hard to get right.

So why would hitting a fade be easier because you hold off the "release", when you can do the exact same action and hit a draw, only with a slightly different clubface angle at impact?

Hitting a draw does not require less hand action than a fade.

Gainey got great hand action (or the lack of it) through impact.

[B of H]

Originally Posted by iacas

Then that's possibly a third definition (but very close to the second). The previous two were the rolling of the wrists/forearms (right crossing over left), and the TGM-specific. Most people seem to refer to the first one.

I don't teach that, no.

The point I'm making, boiled down simply, is this: done properly (without rolling the forearms/wrists), a draw is just as easy to control as a fade, and I could argue is actually easier to control (but will choose not to as that's not really the specific topic).

yeah, i'm not saying that I think a draw or fade is easier to control etc...  I'm saying that what i've been told over the years is that some players who play a fade like to error on the side of holding on or getting a little to open/cleared through impact.  that is all.  they felt that it was a better way to play for them...eliminating the left side of the course and having a shot that lands softer.  I also believe he said that a fade due to more backspin also had a larger margin for error (in his mind).  IIRC the idea was that if either shot had for instance 200 to 500rpms of sidespin the fade would produce a tighter shot pattern because the ratio of sidespin to backspin was greater on the draw so for instance the same amount of sidespin with more backspin produced less drift in the direction of the shot if that makes sense.  Of course this was 1994 and I was 15/16 years old so I might be a little foggy on the details.

for the record it's hard to play a fade here as you predominant shot due to the wind unless you really have a shallow angle of attack and hit it fairly flat.  I've only briefly tried to encourage the fade over the draw in my own swing and it wasn't all the successful.

edit: come to think of it I think I remember another rationale for the fade being that if a player has the tendency to get ahead of the ball on occasion then a push or block ends up being right rough because you are already set up left rather than if you are playing for a draw and you block it producing a right to right.  Of course if you feel that block coming on and flip it with your hands you are in trouble either way right?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by B of H

He'd rather his misses came from holding on or clearing too fast than the opposite of his arms/hands turning over too much or feeling as if he needed to let the club pass his body etc...  So to him the idea was that in an ideal shot you had everything timed properly but if you got a little off then you kind of held on too much and it produced a more pronounced fade.  If you look at lowery's swing you can see that he releases the club fully but the follow through is a 'no draw' type with the hands finishing high and the club moving back behind him in that manner.

Just a couple of quick notes...

1. You can not roll your hands over and hit a draw. As Zeph said the rolling of the hands is virtually irrelevant except that it can affect the clubface angle pre-impact.
2. What happens well after impact is pretty irrelevant. Lucas Glover is a good example of this. He'd be better holding off the (rotation of the) clubface even longer, because he gets in trouble when he starts rolling it too early. He could hold off the clubface all the way to the finish and he'd still be playing a draw.
3. The hands will tend to finish low in a fade pattern. The hand will tend to finish high in a draw pattern. Simple geometry of the circle - if you send the path left the hands will exit lower than if you send the path to the right. Consider the circle the hands (generally) trace on a plane. Low and left = fade. High and right = draw.

Originally Posted by B of H

yeah, i'm not saying that I think a draw or fade is easier to control etc...  I'm saying that what i've been told over the years is that some players who play a fade like to error on the side of holding on or getting a little to open/cleared through impact.  that is all.  they felt that it was a better way to play for them...eliminating the left side of the course and having a shot that lands softer.  I also believe he said that a fade due to more backspin also had a larger margin for error (in his mind).

That's the problem: those things may have been true for how those particular players executed a fade (or thought they did) , but they aren't true for everyone.

I can hit draws that land just as soft or softer than a fade, and in fact, a push-draw is virtually guaranteed to have more height, land softer, and have more backspin than a pull-fade.

[B of H]

Originally Posted by iacas

Just a couple of quick notes...

You can not roll your hands over and hit a draw. As Zeph said the rolling of the hands is virtually irrelevant except that it can affect the clubface angle pre-impact.

What happens well after impact is pretty irrelevant. Lucas Glover is a good example of this. He'd be better holding off the (rotation of the) clubface even longer, because he gets in trouble when he starts rolling it too early. He could hold off the clubface all the way to the finish and he'd still be playing a draw.

The hands will tend to finish low in a fade pattern. The hand will tend to finish high in a draw pattern. Simple geometry of the circle - if you send the path left the hands will exit lower than if you send the path to the right. Consider the circle the hands (generally) trace on a plane. Low and left = fade. High and right = draw.

That's the problem: those things may have been true for how those particular players executed a fade (or thought they did), but they aren't true for everyone.

I can hit draws that land just as soft or softer than a fade, and in fact, a push-draw is virtually guaranteed to have more height, land softer, and have more backspin than a pull-fade.

yeah, once again i'm just reitterating what I was told/taught specifically by a few people namely one guy.  He described lowery's follow through as a 'non-left' swing etc...  I only spent a few months with him before giving up and going back to the draw.  He did feel though that the follow through was the most important thing to focus on in the golf swing and one of the drills he worked with steve (and myself) on was to call the shot in his backswing iirc.  I'd take it back and he's say 'low fade' or 'high draw' when I was about half-way back etc...  we worked on focusing on the follow through position and the fade follow through was exactly like his swing in that video while the draw was more around the body/over the shoulder if you will.

[PJCdude]

I believe when Tiger was talking about his comeback prior to Quail Hollow, he said he was playing better because he was drawing his ball more consistently. He said he likes it when his natural ball flight is a draw because then its easy to hit a fade. But when his natural ball flight is fading, then its hard to work in a draw.

Throw back Thursday but googling draw vs fade brought me to this and this is how Infeel exactly. I started off as a huge slicer and learned how to (inconsistently) draw the ball but now when a shot calls for a fade it is so much easier. When the season starts up again I think I'm gonna try to work a fade a bit and see how it goes

[Hammer 4]

OT, tonight I finally learned to hit a fade on demand, well, about 60 % of the time...My normal iron shot is a slight draw.

[Mike Boatright]

With the driver tour pros hit high draws and high fades and rarely low shots. The reason for this is their club head speed is in the 118 range and more so carry is better to fly bunkers cut corners or just miss the fairway by a few yards. A simple set up change and they can hit it low by leveling out their path I assume they do this with the irons and into the wind on tee shots. You would have to be a caddy to know but I bet they hit 80% high shots and move the ball a round a bot depending on the hole.

[jgreen85]

watching Bubba, it's easy to see how he sets up for a draw/fade. Do other players, particularly players who really just play the ball one way, set up for that ball flight? Zach Johnson, for example, plays a draw predominantly, is his body set up to do that? I know there's lots of talk about his grip.

Currently, I try to set up square to the target. If I'm square to the target, in theory, I should be trying to hit a straight ball, which I kind of am. A well struck ball typically will draw or push draw, but I'll see straight, some times fades. Should I set up more to favor one ball flight or the other? Is that what others/pros do? Actually, set up for the shot they want rather than a "natural" result of their swing mechanics being a draw/fade?

[jbishop15]

watching Bubba, it's easy to see how he sets up for a draw/fade. Do other players, particularly players who really just play the ball one way, set up for that ball flight? Zach Johnson, for example, plays a draw predominantly, is his body set up to do that? I know there's lots of talk about his grip.

Currently, I try to set up square to the target. If I'm square to the target, in theory, I should be trying to hit a straight ball, which I kind of am. A well struck ball typically will draw or push draw, but I'll see straight, some times fades. Should I set up more to favor one ball flight or the other? Is that what others/pros do? Actually, set up for the shot they want rather than a "natural" result of their swing mechanics being a draw/fade?

Try this thread: Shaping The Ball

That has a lot of good information, as the title indicates. If I had to give my thoughts on this (and remember, I'm not an instructor [though I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night]), I would setup to favor whatever type of shot you hit right now. That is, of course, if you are happy with your shot shape. It's no good to aim right, for example, if you hit a push-fade, or left if you hit a pull-draw.

Most pros hit a draw; some aim left with the feet, some right, some square. Some have weak grips, strong grips, neutral grips. Most pros, as that thread will tell you, hit one stock shot type 99% of the time.

[rolopolo]

Just a couple of quick notes...

You can not roll your hands over and hit a draw. As Zeph said the rolling of the hands is virtually irrelevant except that it can affect the clubface angle pre-impact.

What happens well after impact is pretty irrelevant. Lucas Glover is a good example of this. He'd be better holding off the (rotation of the) clubface even longer, because he gets in trouble when he starts rolling it too early. He could hold off the clubface all the way to the finish and he'd still be playing a draw.

The hands will tend to finish low in a fade pattern. The hand will tend to finish high in a draw pattern. Simple geometry of the circle - if you send the path left the hands will exit lower than if you send the path to the right. Consider the circle the hands (generally) trace on a plane. Low and left = fade. High and right = draw.

That's the problem: those things may have been true for how those particular players executed a fade (or thought they did), but they aren't true for everyone.

I can hit draws that land just as soft or softer than a fade, and in fact, a push-draw is virtually guaranteed to have more height, land softer, and have more backspin than a pull-fade.

not sure this is correct?

[iacas]

not sure this is correct?

It is. I can hit some huge draws without rolling my hands over. Look at Zach Johnson too.

[rolopolo]

It is. I can hit some huge draws without rolling my hands over. Look at Zach Johnson too.

hang on a second ... i think my confusion comes from the way you structured your sentence. did you mean to say "you can hit a draw without rolling your hands over"?

[iacas]

hang on a second ... i think my confusion comes from the way you structured your sentence. did you mean to say "you can hit a draw without rolling your hands over"?

Yes, but I feel that's clear if you read the whole exchange that led to that 4+-year-old post. I understand the confusion but I think in the context it makes sense.

[rolopolo]

mmmm thats a lot of reading

[iacas]

mmmm thats a lot of reading :no:

And now that we are on the same page, unnecessary. :-)