Jump to content
Check out the Spin Axis Podcast! ×
Note: This thread is 5670 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

Posted
The 95 player could easily have a miracle day (for him) and shoot 85. The 73 player will probably never shoot 63 in this lifetime. Yet both scores are only 10 better than their averages. That gives the 95 player a win in most any stroke competition because his handicap will skew the result.

I've not played using handicaps much, but is it that much of a problem on an individual (stroke play) one-on-one competition? I'd think things would be reasonably level in that case since, as you mentioned above, the high-capper is also more likely to shoot way over his handicap. For a tournament with many players, I'd expect this effect to virtually guarantee that SOME high-capper would win, since any one is not that likely to go very low, but one in a dozen of them probably will on any given day...

In the bag:
FT-iQ 10° driver, FT 21° neutral 3H
T-Zoid Forged 15° 3W, MX-23 4-PW
Harmonized 52° GW, Tom Watson 56° SW, X-Forged Vintage 60° LW
White Hot XG #1 Putter, 33"


  • Replies 57
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted
You took the words right out of my mouth...

If you had a 20 handicap in his club championship and a scratch golfer in there as well, the 20 handicap wouldnt have do much besides what was common for his game to win the tournament. I think a 20 handi usually shoots in the mid to low 90's on average. Say a par of 70, the 20 shoots 90 both days. depending on course slope and handicap, thats a probably net score around +1 or +2. Say the scratch shoots 72 both days. Good scores for that level of player. He just lost, even though he scored dramatically better than the player he lost to. That kind of disparity is difficult to overcome.

THE WEAPONS CACHE..

Titleist 909 D2 9.5 Degree Driver| Titleist 906f4 13.5 degree 3-Wood | Titleist 909 17 & 21 degree hybrid | Titleist AP2 irons
Titleist Vokey Wedges - 52 & 58 | Scotty Cameron Studio Select Newport 2 Putter | ProV1 Ball

Posted
I play with three guys every Sunday, and we always play for money.
The handicaps range from 6-28 and we would not convince anyone to have any healthy competition let alone play for money if we didn't have handicaps.
I actually think we would struggle to find a regular four-ball, as the higher cappers would lose interest.
Nobody is naive enough to think that the net adjusted score is the sign of a better player, just that on the day, to handicap one guy played better than the other.
If you want to play and not count handicaps then fine but don't discount as crap because loads of people enjoy it.

Taylormade RBZ 10.5 driver, Taylormade Burner 2.0 15 deg 3 wood, Mizuno JPX800 19deg hybrid, Taylormade Burner 2.0 4-PW, Titleist Vokey 52,56,60 rusty wedges, Odyssey White Ice #7 360gm tour weight, Bridgestone B330S


Posted
What's the point in even playing if a guy who shoots a 77 technically beats the guy shooting a 70. I've never competed in an actual league, and for this reason I probably never will.

In our last tournament, I shot 78 (net 63) and my buddy shot 70 (net 65). I broke the league's net score record, and he broke the gross score record.

Even though I won the tournament, I felt really bad for him. He deserved to win but it was a net score competition. I'm trying hard to get my HI down to 10 from 13.

My Clubs
Driver - Nike SUMO 13* R flex
Wood - Cobra 5 wood 18* R flex
3-PW hybrids/irons - Mizuno MX-950 R flex
Wedge - Mizuno MX-950 51* Wedge - Cleveland CG14 56* 14*Putter - RifeBall - Taylormade TP LDP RED


Posted
I've not played using handicaps much, but is it that much of a problem on an individual (stroke play) one-on-one competition? I'd think things would be reasonably level in that case since, as you mentioned above, the high-capper is also more likely to shoot way over his handicap. For a tournament with many players, I'd expect this effect to virtually guarantee that SOME high-capper would win, since any one is not that likely to go very low, but one in a dozen of them probably will on any given day...

The problem is that if a 23 handicapper just shoots a good round, say 92 (3 under his handicap), then the 2 handicapper almost has to shoot a personal best (69) to tie. It is far more likely that the 23 capper will shoot 92 than the low capper will shoot 69 (or 68 to win

). Granted that if the high handicapper is having a typical day, then he would probably lose, but the percentages actually favor him most of the time. Golf handicap systems actually work best in match play because the strokes are only applied on specific holes where they are most likely to be needed. I have played a match where I had to give 26 strokes. I lost the match, but I took it all the way to the 18th hole. Had we been playing stroke play I'd have lost by 8 strokes, out of the game long before the 18th. For stroke play handicaps simply aren't as effective unless the differentials are in the same ball park, thus the flighting system is used most of the time for tournament play.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
Most club championships are flighted. 0-7 in low, 7.1-10, 10.1-14, 14 up there are not typically strokes in those.

The reason for strokes and HC is gambling...there is no other way to do it. If you are honest and play many rounds the HC system works. My 4-some varies from a 7 to 15 and we play ever week plus some extra. Over the last 3 years we have had at leats 150 matches using honest HC.... we throw balls for partners and it works. Being honest with your score and the game is the key.

Driver- Callaway Razor somthing or other
3W- Taylor Made R11S
3H Rocketballz
4I-PW- MP-59
Gap- Vokey 54

Lob- Cleveland 60

Putter- Rife

Skycaddie SG5  


Posted
Even though it's not perfect, HI system works very well, if everybody records the scores honestly.

In our league we have about 15 players with HI ranging between 3 and 22. The guy who won the most tournaments so far is also the lowest capper. More often than not, HI system is fair.

My Clubs
Driver - Nike SUMO 13* R flex
Wood - Cobra 5 wood 18* R flex
3-PW hybrids/irons - Mizuno MX-950 R flex
Wedge - Mizuno MX-950 51* Wedge - Cleveland CG14 56* 14*Putter - RifeBall - Taylormade TP LDP RED


Posted
Even though it's not perfect, HI system works very well, if everybody records the scores honestly.

the guy who keeps winning (the low capper) is winning because he is so consistent - as you need be to get to a low hcap.

thats why he wins more than he loses

Taylormade RBZ 10.5 driver, Taylormade Burner 2.0 15 deg 3 wood, Mizuno JPX800 19deg hybrid, Taylormade Burner 2.0 4-PW, Titleist Vokey 52,56,60 rusty wedges, Odyssey White Ice #7 360gm tour weight, Bridgestone B330S


Posted
The problem is that if a 23 handicapper just shoots a good round, say 92 (3 under his handicap), then the 2 handicapper almost has to shoot a personal best (69) to tie. It is far more likely that the 23 capper will shoot 92 than the low capper will shoot 69 (or 68 to win

Fourputt, sorry to pick on you - I'm using your post as an example...

I'm seeing a fundamental misunderstanding of a HC - or perhaps I have the misunderstanding... A HC is not an average score, where people often hit below their HC. I thought a HC represented pretty much "the absolute best" this player is capable of, and should rarely if ever reach. So the example of the 20 HC shooting 10 under his HC, should NEVER happen! I'm in the ballpark of a 20 HC. I am not capable of shooting an 82 right now. Neither is any legit 20-HC, otherwise my HC would be in the 80s. Again, it seems that no one has faith in the HC system, not even those who profess to follow it. If you're using flights, that means the tournament does not believe in the HC system, or does not believe that the particpants are following the HC system...

HiBore 10.5 driver
GT-500 3- and 5-woods
Bazooka JMax 4 Iron Wood
Big Bertha 2008 irons (4 and 5 i-brids, 6i-9i,PW)
Tom Watson 56 SW Two-Ball putter


Posted
I probably should have clarified. I obviously have golfing buddies, most of them aren't even good enough to realize what a handicap is, so I definitely give them a handful of strokes every time we play. I understand that, I was talking more about "Net Score" Tournaments. That whole idea seems worthless to me....

Cleveland Launcher DST 10.5*

Ping G15 17*

Mizuno MP-53 4-PW with GS-95

Mizuno MPT-11 Black Nickel 52* and 58* with GS-95

Ping Redwood Anser


Posted
I do say this, last week, went up with this guy in my league, we both have a 5 handicap (9 holes) in the league handicap system, we took a tie in holes won and in net score into the final hole. That ws a blast.

Handicap is one of the best things for the game of golf. It makes everything competative equal.

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
 fasdfa dfdsaf 

What's in My Bag
Driver; :pxg: 0311 Gen 5,  3-Wood: 
:titleist: 917h3 ,  Hybrid:  :titleist: 915 2-Hybrid,  Irons: Sub 70 TAIII Fordged
Wedges: :edel: (52, 56, 60),  Putter: :edel:,  Ball: :snell: MTB,  Shoe: :true_linkswear:,  Rangfinder: :leupold:
Bag: :ping:

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
If you had a 20 handicap in his club championship and a scratch golfer in there as well, the 20 handicap wouldnt have do much besides what was common for his game to win the tournament. I think a 20 handi usually shoots in the mid to low 90's on average. Say a par of 70, the 20 shoots 90 both days. depending on course slope and handicap, thats a probably net score around +1 or +2. Say the scratch shoots 72 both days. Good scores for that level of player. He just lost, even though he scored dramatically better than the player he lost to. That kind of disparity is difficult to overcome.

The thing is, that's not really representative of the scores a 20 handicapper is likely to shoot "on average." The 20 capper will pop off a 100+ round all too often. To take one for the hackin' team, I'll post my last 20 scores:

That's an average of 97.35. There are no two "90" scores back to back - that'd be hard! There are only 2 scores out of 20 that are 90 or lower. Add to that the tough pin positions you usually find at tournaments and you might realize that the non-sandbagging 20 capper is competing fairly with the scratch guy. added: Note that 5 out of 20 differentials were at my handicap index or below. That's 25% exactly!

Driver: Nike Ignite 10.5 w/ Fujikura Motore F1
2H: King Cobra
4H: Nickent 4DX
5H: Adams A3
6I 7I 8I 9I PW: Mizuno mp-57Wedges: Mizuno MP T-10 50, 54, 58 Ball: random


Posted
Fourputt, sorry to pick on you - I'm using your post as an example...

One's index doesn't represent the "absolute" best, it reflects the player's scoring potential. He will almost have scores on his handicap list which are better than his handicap index, although a lot of that depends on the difficulty of the courses he plays. The index will always be lower than the average of the returned scores. The GHIN system is designed so that a player who maintains an honest handicap will only match or beat his handicap 25% of time. That percentage will change somewhat if a players game is generally improving or degrading.

Again you misread the purpose. I have total faith in the system to work as intended if the players return honest scores and if the system is implemented as it is intended to be. It is completely normal and proper for stroke tournaments to be flighted. That isn't a crutch, it is just the way that well run clubs do things. It is necessary because every stroke counts toward the final score... there is more room for variance. The flighting system makes the necessary adjustment to compensate for that. It is not necessary for that to be done in matches because you are not concerned with every stroke that is played. Once the play of a hole is finished, those strokes no longer matter. All that matters is whether you won, lost or halved the hole. As a result handicap strokes are only applied on the holes with handicap numbers which within the stroke differential between the two players. The GHIN system has to work for both methods of play and as such there are adjustments that must be made to ensure that the handicaps are applied equitably. This is how the system is designed to work and it works quite well when the handicaps involved are honestly maintained.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
Granted that if the high handicapper is having a typical day, then he would probably lose, but the percentages actually favor him most of the time.

That doesn't make sense to me. Please don't get hostile! If the high capper would lose on a typical day, then how to the percentages favor him most of the time?

Seriously - be nice - I just don't understand.

Driver: Nike Ignite 10.5 w/ Fujikura Motore F1
2H: King Cobra
4H: Nickent 4DX
5H: Adams A3
6I 7I 8I 9I PW: Mizuno mp-57Wedges: Mizuno MP T-10 50, 54, 58 Ball: random


Posted
I'm seeing a fundamental misunderstanding of a HC - or perhaps I have the misunderstanding... A HC is not an average score, where people often hit below their HC. I thought a HC represented pretty much "the absolute best" this player is capable of, and should rarely if ever reach.

While I agree that it's a common misunderstanding, shooting 10 under does happen. It happened to me. I don't keep an official handicap, but I track every score and run the computations myself, so I know what my index was as accurately as the system allows. With a 36.4 (worst possible) handicap, I shot a 98 (+29) on a course where I got 39 strokes, so that's -10... That should happen one in several hundred thousand rounds (i.e., virtually never) according to the USGA tables. The problem is that the number assumes you are and will always be at the current level you're playing. It does not account for improvement, particularly not the sudden changes in performance that tend to happen for relative beginners.

In the bag:
FT-iQ 10° driver, FT 21° neutral 3H
T-Zoid Forged 15° 3W, MX-23 4-PW
Harmonized 52° GW, Tom Watson 56° SW, X-Forged Vintage 60° LW
White Hot XG #1 Putter, 33"


Posted
That doesn't make sense to me. Please don't get hostile! If the high capper would lose on a typical day, then how to the percentages favor him most of the time?

I meant if he is playing his typical erratic game. When he is playing well and the low capper is playing well, the high handicapper will win on total net strokes more often, because there is so much more room for the the high capper to play below his handicap.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
All stroke play tournaments I have ever played in were flighted, with both a gross and a net payout. In the "First Flight" with handicaps of 0-7, for example, there would be a low gross winner and a low new winner, with the prizes being equal. If the payouts were only based on net scores the lower handicapper would hardly ever win. I would never play in a net only tournament.

Posted
I play in a league that is usually a 9-hole league. A couple times a year they do an 18-hole "major". There is supposed to be an official handicap calculation for all players, but it's never accurate. Below are the results from the top 3 finishers:

SCOREHANDICAP NET SCORE
8421 63
8418 66
9124 67

In the bag:
Ping G5 Driver 9 degree, Ping G10 3-wood, Nike 3 hybrid, TaylorMade R9 Irons 4-AW, Cleveland CG15 56 and 60 degree wedges, Odyssey 2-ball blade putter


Note: This thread is 5670 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    PlayBetter
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FitForGolf
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-20%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack/FitForGolf, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope. 15% off TourStriker (no code).
  • Posts

    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • When you've been teaching golf as long as I have, you're going to find that you can teach some things better than you previously had, and you're probably going to find some things that you taught incorrectly. I don't see that as a bad thing — what would be worse is refusing to adapt and grow given new information. I've always said that my goal with my instruction isn't to be right, but it's to get things right. To that end, I'm about five years late in issuing a public proclamation on something… When I first got my GEARS system, I immediately looked at the golf swings of the dozens and dozens of Tour players for which I suddenly had full 3D data. I created a huge spreadsheet showing how their bodies moved, how the club moved, at various points in the swing. I mapped knee and elbow angles, hand speeds, shoulder turns and pelvis turns… etc. I re-considered what I thought I knew about the golf swing as performed by the best players. One of those things dated back to the earliest days: that you extend (I never taught "straighten" and would avoid using that word unless in the context of saying "don't fully straighten") the trail knee/leg in the backswing. I was mislead by 2D photos from less-than-ideal camera angles — the trail leg rotates a bit during the backswing, and so when observing trail knee flex should also use a camera that moves to stay perpendicular to the plane of the ankle/knee/hip joint. We have at least two topics here on this (here and here; both of which I'll be updating after publishing this) where @mvmac and I advise golfers to extend the trail knee. Learning that this was not right is one of the reasons I'm glad to have a 3D system, as most golfers generally preserve the trail knee flex throughout the backswing. Data Here's a video showing an iron and a driver of someone who has won the career slam: Here's what the graph of his right knee flex looks like. The solid lines I've positioned at the top of the backswing (GEARS aligns both swings at impact, the dashed line). Address is to the right, of course, and the graph shows knee flex from the two swings above. The data (17.56° and 23.20°) shows where this player is in both swings (orange being the yellow iron swing, pink the blue driver swing). You can see that this golfer extends his trail knee 2-3°… before bending it even more than that through the late backswing and early downswing. Months ago I created a quick Instagram video showing the trail knee flex in the backswing of several players (see the top for the larger number): Erik J. Barzeski (@iacas) • Instagram reel GEARS shares expert advice on golf swing technique, focusing on the critical backswing phase. Tour winners and major champions reveal the key to a precise and powerful swing, highlighting the importance of... Here are a few more graphs. Two LIV players and major champions: Two PGA Tour winners: Two women's #1 ranked players: Two more PGA Tour winners (one a major champ): Two former #1s, the left one being a woman, the right a man, with a driver: Two more PGA Tour players: You'll notice a trend: they almost all maintain roughly the same flex throughout their backswing and downswing. The Issues with Extending the Trail Knee You can play good golf extending (again, not "straightening") the trail knee. Some Tour players do. But, as with many things, if 95 out of 100 Tour players do it, you're most likely better off doing similarly to what they do. So, what are the issues with extending the trail knee in the backswing? To list a few: Pelvic Depth and Rotation Quality Suffers When the trail knee extends, the trail leg often acts like an axle on the backswing, with the pelvis rotating around the leg and the trail hip joint. This prevents the trail side from gaining depth, as is needed to keep the pelvis center from thrusting toward the ball. Most of the "early extension" (thrust) that I see occurs during the backswing. Encourages Early Extension (Thrust) Patterns When you've thrust and turned around the trail hip joint in the backswing, you often thrust a bit more in the downswing as the direction your pelvis is oriented is forward and "out" (to the right for a righty). Your trail leg can abduct to push you forward, but "forward" when your pelvis is turned like that is in the "thrust" direction. Additionally, the trail knee "breaking" again at the start of the downswing often jumps the trail hip out toward the ball a bit too much or too quickly. While the trail hip does move in that direction, if it's too fast or too much, it can prevent the lead side hip from getting "back" at the right rate, or at a rate commensurate with the trail hip to keep the pelvis center from thrusting. Disrupts the Pressure Shift/Transition When the trail leg extends too much, it often can't "push" forward normally. The forward push begins much earlier than forward motion begins — pushing forward begins as early as about P1.5 to P2 in the swings of most good golfers. It can push forward by abducting, again, but that's a weaker movement that shoves the pelvis forward (toward the target) and turns it more than it generally should (see the next point). Limits Internal Rotation of the Trail Hip Internal rotation of the trail hip is a sort of "limiter" on the backswing. I have seen many golfers on GEARS whose trail knee extends, whose pelvis shifts forward (toward the target), and who turn over 50°, 60°, and rarely but not never, over 70° in the backswing. If you turn 60° in the backswing, it's going to be almost impossible to get "open enough" in the downswing to arrive at a good impact position. Swaying/Lateral Motion Occasionally a golfer who extends the trail knee too much will shift back too far, but more often the issue is that the golfer will shift forward too early in the backswing (sometimes even immediately to begin the backswing), leaving them "stuck forward" to begin the downswing. They'll push forward, stop, and have to restart around P4, disrupting the smooth sequence often seen in the game's best players. Other Bits… Reduces ground reaction force potential, compromises spine inclination and posture, makes transition sequencing harder, increases stress on the trail knee and lower back… In short… It's not athletic. We don't do many athletic things with "straight" or very extended legs (unless it's the end of the action, like a jump or a big push off like a step in a running motion).
    • Day 135 12-25 Wide backswing to wide downswing drill. Recorder and used mirror. 
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.