Mexican drug cartel setting up camps in AZ..

[Laxplayer201092]

Any one else feel like doing something about it?

In the good ole' days there were people called minutemen and militia men who stood up the rights and intrests of the citizens of this country. Now we have people in our country illegally, who we know are connected to mexican drug cartels that are wreaking havoc in Mexico and on our border, and our government is doing nothing about it?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/22...a-border-town/

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/22...outs-parkland/

[NormH3]

Well he did promise us change. Maybe the change is that our federal government is "really not" going to protect us and our sovereignty.

[MikeLowry5]

Imagine that, someone from out west advocating the development of militias.

Let the government do their job. Call your congressman/woman, protest, write letters, vote, etc. DO NOT GO JOINING MILITIAS!

[Laxplayer201092]

Imagine that, someone from out west advocating the development of militias.

Imagine that indeed!

The goverment is doing something, but lets take a look at how well they have handled things as of late. -Millions of illegal immigrants, who i guess Obama wants to give amnesty too. - took literally 40 days to make a statement that nothing is really happening in the gulf with the oil spill, but that he is very upset about it. -gee, the economy? -a war we were supposed to be out of. your right, the goverment is doing a fantastic job. The fact that the reason our country even exists as we see it today is in large part due to militas. I have writtin countless letters to my congressmen and other people in authority and you get the same basic letter back everytime, that they care about what you think, but here is what they believe in. The point of our goverment is that the people are in charge, so why dont some people take charge? IF a milita were to form up and go down there to attempt to stop things liek this, they arent exactly antagonizing anyone who is a citizen...

[Shanks A Million]

your right, the goverment is doing a fantastic job.

Yeah right, but yet for some reason you are proud enough in working for that government to display it in your signature and avatar. I guess the point here is that everyone cherry picks what they like and don't like about government, but the whole idea of democracy is that the public decides what should, and should not be. It can take a long time for things to change, but they do change. We've gone from slavery to segregation to integration, and though it took over a hundred years, it did happen.

The fact of the matter is, the government also fails to help people living in absolute poverty, they refuse to protect people with pre-existing conditions from being blocked by health insurers, there's a lot more things that the government doesn't do. What they do , is provide us with roads, schools, police, fire department, postal service, clean water, inspected meat, safe drugs, and a multitude of other things we don't even think about every day. The computer you're using right now is certified and inspected by government agencies to make sure it won't explode in your face. The United States government does more for its citizens than most people on this planet could ever dream of, but we take it for granted in a big way. Most of us only stop and take notice when the system fails, but never stop and take notice when it works. How many times did you look at the bridge you just crossed and thank the government it didn't fall? How many times did you thank the government when your meat wasn't tainted? How many times did you thank the government when the police arrested a dangerous criminal in your neighborhood? The answer is probably never. And that's pretty normal. So, for every time you use a government service, perhaps you should thank the government for what it does right, and realize that every person, and every government has flaws, but the vast majority of the government's actions are positive and have impact on your life. And if you don't think it's true, go live in a sub Saharan African country for a while with no government services, and just maybe, you might appreciate what you have.

[Weezy]

I bet Dustin Johnson is at one of those cartels right now curled up in the fetal position tryin to kill the memories! lol just trying to lighten the mood a bit.

[michaeljames92]

The beauty of having an island nation....
But really we have issues with boat refugees and every government always criticises the past government for how they handled it and no one does a better job!

[pxc]

Yeah right, but yet for some reason you are proud enough in working for that government to display it in your signature and avatar. I guess the point here is that everyone cherry picks what they like and don't like about government, but the whole idea of democracy is that the public decides what should, and should not be. It can take a long time for things to change, but they do change. We've gone from slavery to segregation to integration, and though it took over a hundred years, it did happen.

You framed your statement as if the gov't does all of those things out of the goodness of its own heart. It does all those things using tax dollars. That is what it was created to do. It doesn't deserve a pat on the back for doing what it was created and is continually funded to do. The gov't is not a benevolent force deserving of gratitude, it's a created tool for helping people to live functionally.

Yes living in the US is better than living in a war-torn African country but that doesn't mean it is perfect or that it shouldn't change, and quickly. Do you really think 100 years is an acceptable amount of time to take to stop (or at least largely contain) something like slavery/racism? If there is a problem and the gov't is too slow in addressing it, then the gov't itself should change. If you have a broken tool, do you stop to reflect on all the projects you've used it on and feel good about it, or do you fix/replace it and get back to work? But it won't because politicians don't care about most of their constituency.

[MikeLowry5]

Well head on down there cowboy and do your thing. This isn't the old west and there are no more Minutemen.

You further prove that people who join militias are as logical thinking as someone joining a gang.

[MikeLowry5]

Imagine that indeed!

If you want to turn this into a "I hate the government/Obama/Bush/Whomever the •••• the President is" thread that is fine, change the title. I thought it was about drug cartels and your thoughts on starting a militia.

I never made my thoughts known of how well or poor the government is doing their job. We get it, you don't like who's in office and you're really pissed about it. It's not illegal aliens, the oil spill, a war or anything else, you simply don't like who's in charge. If that wasn't the case you wouldn't have brought up the other stuff which is not pertinant to your argument.

[Laxplayer201092]

If you want to turn this into a "I hate the government/Obama/Bush/Whomever the •••• the President is" thread that is fine, change the title. I thought it was about drug cartels and your thoughts on starting a militia.

I apologize, i sorta misread your argument. Im not happy with how the current president handles things, and i kinda thought you were getting at that. But my point can be made that nohting is being done toward any of the big problems, and i certainly concider this a big problem.

Well head on down there cowboy and do your thing. This isn't the old west and there are no more Minutemen.

first, dont call me cowboy.

There are no mroe minutemen because they werent needed. No terrible thing or foreighn invader was in our country, it would be useless for people to band together to do something. If some group of people came into your neighborhood and started messing with your stuff, intimidating people, and the police did nothing, you wouldnt want to take action on your own? Your saying my thinking is illogical? All i want to know is this, is it morally or ethically illogical for me and other people to go down there and try to do something, to try to persuade the goverment towards action, with our own actions.

[Shanks A Million]

I apologize, i sorta misread your argument.

There's your whole argument in a nutshell. We were forced to suffer through the previous clown for 8 years, and now it's your turn to suffer. That's the beauty of this country.

Yes living in the US is better than living in a war-torn African country but that doesn't mean it is perfect or that it shouldn't change, and quickly. Do you really think 100 years is an acceptable amount of time to take to stop (or at least largely contain) something like slavery/racism?

So, what you're saying is you want a government like those of western Europe? They change extremely rapidly, and the laws change just as fast. Not only is slavery outlawed in many European countries, but you can go to jail for making racist statements in public. While I don't disagree with kicking the ass of racists, I wouldn't want to put someone in jail for their beliefs.

I think the U.S.'s system is certainly in need of change, but change is constant, and the system is changing every day. The fact of the matter is, when you compare where we are now to where we were in 1776, it's almost unthinkable. When "all men are created equal" was written, it was widely understood that it meant all white, male, landowning men were equal and had the same rights as English subjects to liberty and property. Abigail Adams wrote a letter to her husband John Adams asking why women weren't allowed to vote if they were governed. His response was that she was a "silly woman" and how could such things be? The founding fathers almost unanimously believed a white man who didn't own about 50 acres was unfit to vote. It was so widely accepted, that the constitution doesn't even specify it. The whole foundation of the Union was basically a knee jerk reaction to the British laws that were forced on the colonists. Most of the bill of rights is directly in opposition to laws the British placed on the colonies. Quartering of soldiers (the English made it legal to quarter soldiers in houses), trial by jury of peers (the English made it legal to ship someone back to England for their trial), and so on. But those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. So, it's good to disagree with the government, but remember that 99% of this country is good, and we're nitpicking the 1% bad.

[GolfBear]

I apologize, i sorta misread your argument. Im not happy with how the current president handles things, and i kinda thought you were getting at that. But my point can be made that nohting is being done toward any of the big problems, and i certainly concider this a big problem.

Drug cartels wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the insane demand for drugs created by legal residents of the United States. Is the issue the drug cartels or the illegal immigrant portion of it?

Were you happy with how the previous President handled this situation? After all, he had 8 years in office and a majority in both houses so he could pretty much do what he liked. The BILLIONS we spent fighting a war looking for "weapons of mass destruction" could have been put into the budgets of the INS and Interior departments and we could have completely solved the immigration problem. Hell for what we've spent in Iraq we could have bought every illegal immigrant a car, given them $5000 in spending cash and let them drive back to Mexico. The harsh reality is our elected leaders aren't really interested in solving problems anymore. They're interested in 2 things. Getting re-elected and demonizing the other party. The principals of our Constitution work just fine. Every legal resident get's his or her opportunity to vote for people who will represent their point of view. Just because your parties viewpoint isn't the majority is no reason to form a "patriot" army. Modern day militia's and minutemen aren't patriots, they're basically spoiled children who are pissed off at everyone that doesn't agree with them. They're incapable of understanding that they don't automatically have the right to the majority viewpoint. This founding father's had a word for those that opposed the government they established. They were called loyalists and traitors.

[Shanks A Million]

Drug cartels wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the insane demand for drugs created by legal residents of the United States. Is the issue the drug cartels or the illegal immigrant portion of it?

That's really getting at the source now, isn't it? The illegality of drugs is one of the largest problems of them all. Remember how much trouble was caused by alcohol being illegal. When prohabition ended, the outlaw element of it pretty much dissapeared. You can't exactly be an underworld criminal if what you do isn't illegal.

[pxc]

So, what you're saying is you want a government like those of western Europe? They change extremely rapidly, and the laws change just as fast. Not only is slavery outlawed in many European countries, but you can go to jail for making racist statements in public. While I don't disagree with kicking the ass of racists, I wouldn't want to put someone in jail for their beliefs.

No, I'm not saying that, please don't put words in my mouth. It is not an either-or situation. There are things I find attractive about some other governments, like a 3+ party system. But saying I would like change does not mean I want to adopt an EU style of governing. I don't want the entirety of our metropolitan areas under video surveilance like in London. But I do not buy the idea that the only two possibilities for change are "too slow" and "too fast". Maybe that is idealistic but hell this is a political conversation on a golf message board.

I think the U.S.'s system is certainly in need of change, but change is constant, and the system is changing every day. The fact of the matter is, when you compare where we are now to where we were in 1776, it's almost unthinkable. When "all men are created equal" was written, it was widely understood that it meant all white, male, landowning men were equal and had the same rights as English subjects to liberty and property. Abigail Adams wrote a letter to her husband John Adams asking why women weren't allowed to vote if they were governed. His response was that she was a "silly woman" and how could such things be? The founding fathers almost unanimously believed a white man who didn't own about 50 acres was unfit to vote. It was so widely accepted, that the constitution doesn't even specify it. The whole foundation of the Union was basically a knee jerk reaction to the British laws that were forced on the colonists. Most of the bill of rights is directly in opposition to laws the British placed on the colonies. Quartering of soldiers (the English made it legal to quarter soldiers in houses), trial by jury of peers (the English made it legal to ship someone back to England for their trial), and so on.

I appreciate the history lesson but that has little to do with what we're talking about. I'm not saying we need to get back to everything the founding fathers stood for. They had some great ideas but obviously the culture of the time couldn't and shouldn't be tolerated today. That doesn't mean we should sit back and be satisfied with the progress that's been made.

But those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. So, it's good to disagree with the government, but remember that 99% of this country is good, and we're nitpicking the 1% bad.

I somewhat disagree with this maxim because I think we are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past regardless of circumstances. That's human nature.

I cannot agree that 99% of the government is good. Country, maybe (probably not even then), but the original topic was the gov't, not the country. I don't even know how you could begin to quantify percentage of "goodness" but there is plenty bad out there and it doesn't take more than a few clicks on the US section of Google News to find it.

[jamo]

The BILLIONS we spent fighting a war looking for "weapons of mass destruction" could have been put into the budgets of the INS and Interior departments and we could have completely solved the immigration problem.

$10 billion a month we spent.

The harsh reality is our elected leaders aren't really interested in solving problems anymore. They're interested in 2 things. Getting re-elected and demonizing the other party.

I think political gridlock has a lot to due with that, but I agree completely with what you are saying.

[Blades4me]

Any one else feel like doing something about it?

Unfortunetly this is nothing new. Our loevely government has given illegal immagration nothing but lip service for over 30 years now. Oh and the last administration paid Bowing millions to develop an electronic monitor on the boarder, which of course hasn't worked. It seems to make it in nat'l government you have to have an IQ of less than 75 and/or be a socialpath.

[Shanks A Million]

Unfortunetly this is nothing new. Our loevely government has given illegal immagration nothing but lip service for over 30 years now. Oh and the last administration paid Bowing millions to develop an electronic monitor on the boarder, which of course hasn't worked. It seems to make it in nat'l government you have to have an IQ of less than 75 and/or be a socialpath.

Yes, that was on the requirement test last time I checked. That, and you need to be good at kissing babies, but you can't kiss them the wrong way if you want to get re-elected.