Oh, Peter Kostis... (on Dean Wilson)!

[iacas]

Let us count the number of either incorrect or misleading things that Peter Kostis says in this video...

1 - 0:16 "Pay attention to the angle of his spine." Peter is obsessed with "spine angles" and does not understand that they change - continuously - throughout the swing. The only time you return to something close to your setup "spine angle" is around P6. I won't document every instance of "spine angle" mention in this video, but there are plenty.

2 - 0:32 "Actually leaning a little bit left at the top." Actually, he's leaning well to the left at the top - his shoulder pitch is around 30° and you can see plenty of left tilt. Peter Kostis makes the mistake many make when they think of S&T; - he thinks that "left tilt" is towards the target . After all, that's the golfer's left, correct? Yes... at setup. When the shoulders have turned 90°, "left" is towards the ball. It's what keeps your head steady.

3 - 0:44 "The spine angle is as it was at address." Really? Compare these two frames and tell me what you think:


4 - 0:50 "Not so much a recipe for power." So how'd Dean average 299 off the tee on Friday? How'd Charlie Wi continue to blow away the guys at the AT&T; with the distances he was hitting not only his driver but his irons? Troy Matteson hits the ball a ways. JJ Henry too.

5 - 1:12 "Take note of his head position. It will not move to the right." 1:24 "His upper body will tilt back to the right."

6 - 1:14 "Well tilted on his left side." See #2.

7 - 1:31 "Because he hangs so much on his left hand side, he's generally going to have a very steep angle of attack into the golf ball." OMG! Look at how Steep Dean is when he hits the ball!!! He's got like three degrees of shaft lean! So steep! And just look at that massive deep divot he took! Why, the thing is a little bigger than a quarter! It might even be the size of a fifty cent piece or a silver dollar! So HUGE, that divot![/sarcasm]



Stack and Tilt does not have a low ball flight. It does not have deep divots. The "tilting" you do to the left is NOT towards the target, but rather - since you rotate - ends up being towards the golf ball at the top of the backswing. You do "tilt right" (right side tilt, secondary axis tilt) but it's a result of the hips pushing forward, not because you're "leaning right" or anything manual.

[Stretch]

Screw Kostis. I'm just happy some of the S&T; guys are out there right now playing well.

Is Charlie still officially working with Mike and Andy?

[Taggsy]

Until a S&T; player starts cleaning up at tournaments and is a real contender for majors, the mainstream media aren't interested in accurately describing the ins and outs of the S&T; swing. They're just telling viewers how they see it.

I'm sure if Kostis were analysing a "traditional" swing, you could go through the same process and pick holes in his understanding of that swing too.
Unless there's a conspiracy to deliberately confuse and mislead the average golfer over the S&T; swing... ;)

[Zeph]

I'm sure if Kostis were analysing a "traditional" swing, you could go through the same process and pick holes in his understanding of that swing too.

I think Kostis is just plain out wrong on a lot of things, regardless of which swing he is "analysing". But that a lot of the higher ups in the golfing world deliberately confuse and mislead the average golfer over the S&T; swing, I would not be surprised. The way some people (Faldo) have talked about it, there is no wonder the viewers don't want to look into it. Let's not forget also that S&T; is not only a swing style, but the methods used to describe and explain the golf swing are the important base of it. Peter Kostis says what he believe is right, but Mike and Andy has put focus on not only teaching a simple and effective golf swing, but also understanding it. Which is why the things Kostis says seems so ignorant and wrong to those who know what is right. Mike and Andy knows more about the swing style of other teachers than they do themselves.

[Taggsy]

There's no conspiracy here.
Faldo, in particular, has every right to dismiss S&T; as the "wrong" way to swing a club. The reasons are simple; it's not the technique he used to win 6 majors, and it's not the technique anyone has used to win majors (or even a notable amount of tournaments).
Until that changes, S&T; will always be the minority, poorly understood and represented by mainstream media.

(I'm playing devil's advocate here, I'm a fan of the S&T; principles- check out my swing)

[iacas]

Faldo, in particular, has every right to dismiss S&T; as the "wrong" way to swing a club. The reasons are simple; it's not the technique he used to win 6 majors, and it's not the technique anyone has used to win majors (or even a notable amount of tournaments).

I know you're playing devil's advocate, but...

http://iacas.org/f/nick_faldo_vs_snt.jpg As you know, EVERY player "tilts left" in their swing. If they didn't their head wouldn't stay anywhere NEAR where it does on the backswing. Peter Kostis has heard that S&T; players "tilt left" but doesn't understand that the frame of reference rotates... and that every golfer "tilts left" to some degree.

[jamo]

I watched a few of his analyses live an even I knew they were complete BS. It seems like with Kostis if he teaches that person he points out all of the good things (See the Paul Casey thread) but if the doesn't teach that person he points out all of the bad things.

[Taggsy]

Nice work! I'd like to see Faldo write the foreword to the second edition of S&T; with an apology ;) lol.

In all seriousness, Bennett and Plummer could have avoided all the negativity and misunderstanding from the mainstream by not giving their technique a name.
Or at a push, called it "Professional Swing" or "Classical Swing" and emphasised the fact it's nothing new, and all the greats have used it to varying degrees in the past. Instead it's portrayed as something completely new and radical. And if there's something the golfing establishment is against, it's anything remotely new or radical lol.

Of course, it's hard to market and sell something that doesn't have a name ;)

[Leftygolfer]

I figured you'd have something to say about his analysis Erik. The misconceptions are endless with S & T and most golfers. I find it so amusing. There isn't anything unique about stack and tilt except in the way it actually helps you understand how your body actually works in hitting quality golf shots. If your tilting to the target in the backswing, you are doing something wrong as already indicated above.

[Harmonious]

Why such defensiveness over a commentator's analysis? Kostis is paid a pretty penny to give his thoughts on a golf swing, and really does have some golf knowledge, contrary to popular opinion here. The fact that he doesn't embrace the swing philosophy does not make him a conspirator who wants to rid the golf world of Stack and Tilt. I doubt that he cares whether the S&T; method flourishes or flounders.

There are many different opinions on how to present the club to the ball. Some ways work for some, other ways work for others. If you believe S&T; is the greatest way to hit a ball, that's good for you. Doesn't mean a different way won't work just as well, if not better, for me. It also doesn't mean that anyone who disagrees with your opinion is wrong.

[Chillmoon91]

He does get critized alot but how come players like paul and bernhard langer go to him? he must know a few things, as for S&T; I dunno, its really hurt sean o hair and mike weir and Ive never seen a tour S&T; pro winning(although they probably have)

[Leftygolfer]

He does get critized alot but how come players like paul and bernhard langer go to him? he must know a few things, as for S&T; I dunno, its really hurt sean o hair and mike weir and Ive never seen a tour S&T; pro winning(although they probably have)

Not sure what you mean. I am pretty sure Mike Weir has been worse since leaving them. And sean o hair is a top 10 machine. He just doesn't get in done on the greens. Mike Folley is probably the hottest teacher in the world and very similar to s&t.; His players are doing very well.

The reason he is critized is b/c he is inaccurate in his description. There is nothing steep about his swing, the tilting is towards the ball, and he has plenty of power.

[iacas]

Why such defensiveness over a commentator's analysis?

This is anything but defensive. I'm pointing out that Peter Kostis is wrong. To be clear, too, that's not an opinion either.

and really does have some golf knowledge, contrary to popular opinion here.

No debate from me there. But his knowledge of S&T; seems to be limited to a few little phrases he's heard before and nothing else. Peter does not seem to be a "student of the game" because he does not seem to have looked into anything people have learned about the golf swing since roughly 1987.

It also doesn't mean that anyone who disagrees with your opinion is wrong.

It's not all a matter of opinion. Peter is wrong - often easily provably so - and any opinions he makes based on a poor foundation of wrong facts is bound to be suspect as well. Dean's spine - like Paul Casey's - is tilted to the left at the top of the backswing.

as for S&T; I dunno, its really hurt sean o hair and mike weir and Ive never seen a tour S&T; pro winning(although they probably have)

Mike Weir's world ranking is terrible, and Sean O'Hair saw a resurgence in his game AFTER working on basically an S&T; swing with Sean Foley, who teaches S&T; moves to his students (Sean most of all) but doesn't call it that.

[2bGood]

Unless there's a conspiracy to deliberately confuse and mislead the average golfer over the S&T; swing... ;)

I think there is a conspiracy to confuse the average golfer about ANY swing. There is so much conflicting information out there about the golf swing. If you pay attention to too many sources, you are hooped.

Just to be clear though S & T is part of the natural golf movement, right?

[tws1098]

I think there is a conspiracy to confuse the average golfer about ANY swing. There is so much conflicting information out there about the golf swing, that if you pay attention to too many sources, you are hooped.

I strongly agree with that. But it is something that is present in many sports and big topics. I believe it stems mostly from people (like Faldo) claiming that their technique is not some new "radical" thing (which is usually not radical at all, merely a new perspective pointing out how a swing, throw, shot, etc. should look for optimal results), when in reality more things are in common then they want to admit. Also, as with other sports, people will claim to be more about "feel" so when they describe what they are feeling in a golf swing, it can be horribly misrepresented...leading to poor teaching, or commentating, by someone who really does employ a great swing.

[uttexas]

Here's some swings of Kostis' students. Kostis often goes on and on about maintaining the flex in the rear knee. Do his students follow his advice? No. If his students don't follow his recommendations, who should?

[motteler621]

on thing about the stack n tilt. I think that if you are going to use stack n tilt then you have to do the swing straight textbook and not just lean on your left side the entire swing because that isnt a good technique. Ive seen alot of people do that in the swing videos they post, they think the right thing to do is just put your weight on your left foot the entire time. You are going to have a steep swing, hits to the right and less power if you do this IMO. I am currently learning the traditional swing from my golf pro, like in ben hogans book, and I like it tons better then when I was trying to put bits and pieces of stack n tilt in my swing; like only leaning on the left side. My swing was kind of something I just made up because it wasnt the full stack n tilt swing and it would of got me no where as far as improving in the long run.

[Harmonious]

Here's some swings of Kostis' students. Kostis often goes on and on about maintaining the flex in the rear knee. Do his students follow his advice? No. If his students don't follow his recommendations, who should?

Maybe I'm seeing it incorrectly, but Casey certainly appears to be maintaining flex in his rear knee. The camera angle doesn't really show the flex during the backswing, but it sure looks to be there. He has a great athletic move.