Distance study in this month of Golf Digest

[sean_miller]

its one thing to carry the ball 300 yards, but its not that big of a deal for a total distance of 300 yards. but then if you get into a players average distance i think that would almost always be skewed on the high end. but if you are on a 400 yard hole and you hit it to the 100 yard marker then its not hard to notice hey i just hit a 300 yard drive. not that it really matters tho.

Try hitting the ball thin like they do - seriously - a ball rarely goes off line when struck on the bottom groove.

[Shanks A Million]

When i read Distance & Study & Taylormade in one sentence i immediately think of a cigarette company funding a cancer study, now why is that?

All of this is true. The technology factors are so minimal, the only real advances in the last 20 years were big titanium drivers, and hybrids. Not much else has changed.

Even with all of that, the extra 3" on modern drivers equates to about 7 yards on a perfectly struck shot.

[ghalfaire]

OK I'll try to be serious this time. I see a lot of these types of threads that correlate average driving distance to handicap. But in statistics just because two things correlate doesn't necessarily indicate a causal relationship, e.g. having one attribute will cause the other. Anyone that has played golf for any amount of time must know that average driving distance is only very loosely related, if at all, to your handicap. So why would anyone sort data that way if it is obviously the two attributes (handicap and driving distance) don't have a causal relationship. To me it is obvious that they want you to think that more distance will yield a lower handicap to entice you to go and purchase the new hi-tech driver designed to give you more distance. I know a few 25 handicaps that will out drive most of the 0-5 handicap 90% of the time and still lose the match. I'll bet most of you out there is cyber land do too. Driving distance just isn't that important a factor in determining what your handicap is. Nor is a handicap a very good indicator of any specific individual's driving distance. There is a cliché that goes something like this; "statistics don't lie, but liars use statistics".

[GolfBear]

OK I'll try to be serious this time. I see a lot of these types of threads that correlate average driving distance to handicap. But in statistics just because two things correlate doesn't necessarily indicate a causal relationship, e.g. having one attribute will cause the other. Anyone that has played golf for any amount of time must know that average driving distance is only very loosely related, if at all, to your handicap. So why would anyone sort data that way if it is obviously the two attributes (handicap and driving distance) don't have a causal relationship. To me it is obvious that they want you to think that more distance will yield a lower handicap to entice you to go and purchase the new hi-tech driver designed to give you more distance. I know a few 25 handicaps that will out drive most of the 0-5 handicap 90% of the time and still lose the match. I'll bet most of you out there is cyber land do too. Driving distance just isn't that important a factor in determining what your handicap is. Nor is a handicap a very good indicator of any specific individual's driving distance. There is a cliché that goes something like this; "statistics don't lie, but liars use statistics".

Here's where I see a problem with your conclusion. I absolutely believe average driving distance is unequivically linked to handicapped. The reason I believe this is because my interpretation of average driving distance only includes drives that actually land in the fairway. Everyone that's ever picked up a golf club has probably blasted a drive 300+ yards into a treeline somewhere. Unfortunately those monster blasts don't count. In fact, they're meaningless outliers. I also believe that you have to include ALL of your drives in that average. Far too many message board pros state that they "average 275" because they're remembering the two drives that they striped. They're ignoring the other ten, two of which were duck hooked and went 100 yards, 6 were in the rough on either side of the fairway but only went 225. The remaining blast was 280 and landed three fairways to the right.

If a player is averaging 275 yards off the tee and those drives are landing in the fairway then that is absolutely indicative of a player who is able to generate significant clubhead speed (>100mph) and do so with a large degree of precision. The probability that a higher handicap golfer (20+) can consistently hit a ball 275 yards that lands in the fairway then not be able to hit a 7 iron or higher into the green is unbelievably low. The shorter irons are easier to hit and the increased backspin mitigates any sidespin. Unless you're putting blind, it's inconceivable to me that you could maintain a handicap of 20 or higher if you're averaging 275 in the fairway . We can argue this point back and forth but without commissioning a massive study we'll never have hard data. I've played golf for almost 40 years. No offense but I'm willing trust my personal observations over that time as opposed to internet claims.

[ghalfaire]

Well Golfbear you're correct. But that isn't the data that Golf Digest published. It was just average driving distance separated by handicap without regard to where the ball went (or at least the article didn't mention it). That is a lot difference than driving distance in the fairway. Of course hitting the ball farther AND in the fairway is an advantage. It is a lot easier to hit a green with a wedge than a 7 iron, especially with a good lie, e.g. in the fairway. But you are making the point that distance alone isn't what separates high and low handicap golfers. There is a lot more to the game. In fact a year or so ago either Golf Digest or Golf magazine published a big study that illustrated that the closer to the hole you are, the more important the shot is to your final score. That would seem to say that driving distance is the least important attribute to your scores from which your handicap is derived. Somehow driving distance seems to be over emphasized in today's world and most golfers of any handicap would be better served spending more time at putting and short game practice.

[GolfBear]

Well Golfbear you're correct. But that isn't the data that Golf Digest published. It was just average driving distance separated by handicap without regard to where the ball went (or at least the article didn't mention it). That is a lot difference than driving distance in the fairway. Of course hitting the ball farther AND in the fairway is an advantage. It is a lot easier to hit a green with a wedge than a 7 iron, especially with a good lie, e.g. in the fairway. But you are making the point that distance alone isn't what separates high and low handicap golfers. There is a lot more to the game. In fact a year or so ago either Golf Digest or Golf magazine published a big study that illustrated that the closer to the hole you are, the more important the shot is to your final score. That would seem to say that driving distance is the least important attribute to your scores from which your handicap is derived. Somehow driving distance seems to be over emphasized in today's world and most golfers of any handicap would be better served spending more time at putting and short game practice.

No arguments here!

[MikeLowry5]

Ok I'll bite and be the guppy to get blasted.....

According to this and to other threads/calculators I see someone has to have a swing speed around 115 to hit a ball 300 yards. Are these numbers for carry distances?

I have only looked at my swing speed once in my life, 105ish at Golf Galaxy for about 5 swings however it said the ball speed was anywhere from 158-162mph which apparently isn't possible. With that said I had 3 drives over 3 hundo yesterday with the longest being 317 off my gps. Def. not a dig me thread because I still shot an 88 :(.

[design]

Ok I'll bite and be the guppy to get blasted.....

It's simply not possible. The highest ball speed you can expect to achieve with a clubhead speed of 105 is 155mph, and that's with absolute perfect contact. To answer your question, those numbers are not carry distances, they are total.

[Open-Faced Club Sandwedge]

The probability that a higher handicap golfer (20+) can consistently hit a ball 275 yards that lands

I do think you're right in most cases. I think the sin most 20+ handicappers commit when they claim they average 275 is claiming "on average" when what they really mean is "often". I'm one example.

Here's a pretty common story for me on a par 4. It's not "average", but it's really quite "often"; several times per round: Drive 270 to 290 yards either in the fairway or in light rough with a clear shot to the green. Elated. 9i, hit a little fat, clubface ending up too closed at impact, in the rough short and left of green. Annoyed. SW, hit pretty well, but releases more than expected, rolls to the fringe. Trying to stay calm. 27-foot putt, left 10 feet short. Furious. 10-foot putt, just past the edge of the hole and 3-feet past. Discouraged. 3-foot putt in the hole. Mystified that a drive that should make a single-digit handicapper proud still doesn't even buy me a single bogey, much less a par or birdie. That's not how every hole goes. If you actually averaged my drives, they'd be way short of that 270-to-290, especially if you only include carry. But it's not at all unusual. It happens several times per round. And I still end up at double and triple bogey. -Andrew

[lionking]

Yes a 300yd fairway driving average 20capper would be hard to believe... 300yds is alot for tour pro's. Ive smacked a few out that far but its not an average for sure... Though I wish it was

1) there are plenty of 20+ cappers that believe they average ~300 yards. they simply toss out all the drives they don't hit well.

2) i think sean miller (?) made a good point about avid golfers (esp those particiipating in forums) having an overly negative view/reaction to 20+ hcs making claims of 300+ drives. as a whole, we're probably just not that athletic. case in point, when i play with other "avid" golfers, i'm usually the longest at 260 but my playing partners are usually on the shorter, rounder and older side of the population. a month ago, i played with two athletic guys- one a former NFL lineman and the other an active player in adult baseball leagues. the NFL guy hit 290-310 on six of his drives, the other guy couldn't hit his driver but hit his 8-iron 180. neither broke 100 but neither play golf more than three times a year.

[sean_miller]

1) there are plenty of 20+ cappers that believe they average ~300 yards. they simply toss out all the drives they don't hit well.

If my comment was along the lines of "I can't do it, so you can't do it either", that was probably me. People shouldn't really worry too much about driving distance, other than as a guide for club selection and for finding your ball in the rough. On a 400 yard hole, whether I hit a drive that goes 240 or 340, I'm still at least one shot away from the green. That shot would be easier from a flat portion of the fairway. Knowing what club is most likely to get you there is important. What club someone else would use is not really important. (PS - I'd be reaching for my 3-wood).

[$2 Nassau]

Meh...okay but how are they gauging the handicaps? Do they do it on demo days or something and just take someone's word for it when they say they are a scratch golfer, or a 10, or whatever? I've never seen a scratch golfer that only hits it 250, I'm sure they exist, but I would expect that to be on the low end.

[MikeLowry5]

It's simply not possible. The highest ball speed you can expect to achieve with a clubhead speed of 105 is 155mph, and that's with absolute perfect contact. To answer your question, those numbers are not carry distances, they are total.

Well I know the distance from the GPS is right, don't know about the Golf Galaxy simulator. I must swing faster than 105mph.

[Shindig]

Meh...okay but how are they gauging the handicaps? Do they do it on demo days or something and just take someone's word for it when they say they are a scratch golfer, or a 10, or whatever? I've never seen a scratch golfer that only hits it 250, I'm sure they exist, but I would expect that to be on the low end.

My home course is one where distance is a big advantage. Yet, an often club champion -- low gross in A flight in club championship -- is an incredibly short hitter. When I play with A-flighters, they tell me I should play with him, since he's as short as I am but maintains a plus handicap.

All the other scratch golfers - and those near to it - I know are bombers (especially relative to me).

[Shanks A Million]

1) there are plenty of 20+ cappers that believe they average ~300 yards. they simply toss out all the drives they don't hit well.

So, what you're saying is these guys are capable of hitting long shots? That's no problem. What we have a problem with is the idea of averaging those. If he hit 6 drives 300 yards, and 6 drives 200 yards, and 6 drives 250, his

average is 250. There's where the argument gets cloudy. No one is saying a good athlete can't bomb one. If I swing out of my shoes, I can nail a drive past 300 yards, I've done it before, I can do it again, but my average is still going to be 246, and if I tried to bomb them, it'd probably get lower because I'd top and chilli dip enough to get it down to about 220. Watching the marquee group coverage of the PGA, I was amazed to see some of the distances these guys hit it. Tiger's group featured Y.E. Yang, and on one shot, down wind, he hit a driver 239. Tiger his his 287 or so. Tiger hit one 255 with a driver, not even into the wind. Even these guys mishit drivers, and that's why it's so hard to average 300+. Shot tracker on the PGA Tour's is an eye opener.

[lionking]

So, what you're saying is these guys are capable of hitting long shots? That's no problem. What we have a problem with is the idea of averaging those. If he hit 6 drives 300 yards, and 6 drives 200 yards, and 6 drives 250, his

what i'm saying is that 1) most 20+ golfers don't know the definition of "average drive" (i'd venture to guess that most serious golfers don't know either) and 2) a good athlete can drive the ball 300+.

these distance-related threads come up at least a few times a month on here as well as all the other forums and the development of it is pretty much the same: 25+ says he drives it 325. all the serious golfers call bs to 25 while making sure to include that while they "only" drive 275 they could hit 300 if they wanted to.

[ghalfaire]

After reading a lot of this thread I decided I would join the fray again. I just looked up the average drive yardage on the PGA Tour site and it is 286.9 yards and that includes drives not in the fairway. There are only 11 Tour players with averages over 300 yards and only two of those are in the top 10 scoring averages. So while I'm sure that there are some 20+ handicaps that might hit a 300+ once in a very great while I doubt there are any that average that yardage. In fact I suspect that very few scratch handicap golfer can average 300 yards. Also the fact that only two of the PGA Tour "big hitters" are in the top 10 scoring list says it really isn't that important to your handicap to be a big hitter. As a fellow golfer about 20 years my senior and couldn't hit a drive over 200 yards told me a few years back while he was lightening my wallet of a sawbuck, "son you need to learn this game is about how many, not how far". Now that I have approached the age he was then I can tell you that was cogent advice.

[pedarius]

what i'm saying is that 1) most 20+ golfers don't know the definition of "average drive" (i'd venture to guess that most serious golfers don't know either) and 2) a good athlete can drive the ball 300+.

I think part of the problem with these discussions (other than the fact that people seem to get inexplicably emotional about this subject) is that true average drive isn't a terribly useful statistic for high handicap amateurs like me. For example, on Saturday I drove the ball pretty well for me and was playing a fairly open course. On the fifth hole, a 405 yd, pretty flat par 4, I had a 332 yard drive according to my playing partner's GPS (a once-a-season occurrence at most for me, and something I certainly could not do again on command). Unfortunately, it was my second shot, after the first tee shot snap-hooked into the woods OOB on the left. Granted, I'm using an artificially small sample here--but the true average of the two is 161, I suppose, but that's not the yardage I or anyone else would use in planning how to play a hole with their driver. For a pro golfer, where the standard deviation of drives is presumably much lower because of the repeatable swing, it's a lot more useful. For someone like me, who happens to be rather large physically (6'6", 235) and reasonably athletic, and so can put the ball out there reasonable distance unless there's a disaster (which happens all too often at my handicap) it's fairly meaningless, as the disasters pull the mathematical average far below the distance-I-plan-to-hit-it-based-on-range-practice-and-my-recollection-of-non-blow-up drives "average," which is what everyone has in mind when they're standing on the tee box trying to decide where to aim and what club to pull.