Pete Dye, Overrated

[ohiolefty]

Stupid.

Golf course design should be about accentuating the topography and local plant/tree life. Not about how much many, tricked up holes you can create with CAD and a bulldozer.

Pete Dye courses, as bad as they are for you and I to play and as ugly as most of them are, are (IMHO) awful to see professionals play. These are guys with TONS of talent. TONS of shots. TONS of creativity and they're being forced to play station-to-station target golf.

I'm waiting for Pete to design a course that features several gigantic windmills in all the fairways and a huge purple dinosaur next to the 18th green - the final hole where once you bounce your purple golf ball off of the rock and underneath the mechanized dancing horse it goes back into the clubhouse so that you don't have a chance to run off with it.

[Bug Bunny]

Aesthetically, I thought Whistling Straits gave you a lot!! I'd LOVE to play there. . . I'd lose 30 balls and shoot 150 but I'd love it once!!! But them fluffing the fescue with leaf blowers is ridiculous!!!!!

[nevets88]

For those who have played Tobacco Road or Tot Hill Farm, do you think Mike Strantz is similar to late Pete Dye?

[alomar123]

I played Fowler's Mill in the Cleveland area and liked the design. It's one of his earlier works I think.

Thats the one I play every week that might turn into a park.

[uttexas]

Dye courses I've played
Austin Country Club
Stonebridge Ranch

If you want to make an grandiose ego statement with a golf course, he's the architect you want. I like to leave a golf course happy and relaxed--not the feelings I've had after playing his courses.

His recent designs are not in harmony with the natural terrain (he likes to move a lot of dirt). For example, his greens often break away from the water and toward visual high points.

I've only seen Harbour Town on TV (have played a replica of the lighthouse hole at Tour 18). He got it right with Harbour Town.

[nevets88]

Thats the one I play every week that might turn into a park.

Aw man, that sucks. Well, hope it stays. Green fees are reasonable too. Good practice area as well.

[lionking]

Yup, tricky and unfair in certain conditions (elevated, sloped and exposed greens on a windy day)... and no doubt over the top with his visuals. But gash darn it, he does things differently and you definately know a Dye course when playing one. I'll continue to shell out the big money to play his courses once in a while...

Dye coursed I've played:
IL- Ruffled Feathers
WI- Whistling Straits Irish
WI- Blackwolf Run (River/Meadow Composite)
SC- Barfoot Resort
CA- Lost Canyon Shadow

[zeg]

I played the Lost Canyons Sky course and thought it was a lot of fun. I don't normally play "nice" courses, and on anything that has many places to lose balls I'll be losing them, so perhaps I'm not too sensitive to its unfairness. I did probably go through 6-8 balls that day, though after I lose my first sleeve I tend to be playing found balls anyway, so it's not that expensive... I've played other courses around here that I thought were a lot worse in terms of losing ridiculous numbers of balls with only moderately bad shots.

[chilly]

I haven't played any of this big name courses, but played the Dye course at PGA Village in FL, and his river course at Va Tech. Basically, I never figured out what all the hype is about. Courses really didn't bring much imagination, and there wasn't much strategy involved as far as I could see. I was a 16-18hcp at the time, but found his bunkering to be a bit ridiculous around the green. Granted, he's not building "easy" courses, but some of the little pot bunkers were built directly into a steep built up mound so that it was impossible to have a shot at the green.

[Domenic]

You guys are saying that because, obviously Pete designed those courses for PGA Tour players. When you play a course like that, move up a tee or two to recompence the challenge of the design. Plus, no one said golf was supposed to be easy, for me that's the best part. Actually, I've played Fowler's Mill GC in chesterland ohio, and it was the perfect blend, of difficulty (without getting too easy, or island-green ish) beauty (maple forests) and flair. To anyone in NE Ohio area I strongly reccomend you play it.

[Deryck Griffith]

I'm not the biggest fan of target Golf and Dye has really become obsessed with designing courses that forces the golfer to hit to targets every shot they make.

Punishing a golfer who makes a good shot onto the a fairway is ridiculous.  You shoudn't have a "fairway" that has a target on either side that you can only hit to.  You should be able to hit the "fairway," and not worry about a slope taking your ball into some hazard that is impossible to get out of.

Pete Dye's style of designing is terrible for our game.  How excited can a newbie be about wanting to learn the game of golf after getting murdered on a Dye course?

[saevel25]

i can't stand his designs, golf is meant to be were your given a chance to post a good score. I don't find his courses fun at all.

[ejimsmith]

I played a Dye course for the first time last week -- TPC Stadium at PGA West.  I've been playing very good/improving golf this summer, and I got a real humbling experience there.  I quit keeping score around hole 8...  I did have some good moments, like hitting the green on a 200y par 3 that was all carry (white tees..), and a birdie in the #3 handicap hole.   If I can pull myself down into single-digit handicap, I'll play again.  Or if I'm up for getting my a$$ handed to me again...  Otherwise, I'll stick with the more scrappy-golfer-friendly Nicklaus PGA West course.

[PhilsRHman]

I'm glad to see this thread. I played the Paiute courses in Vegas and enjoyed them all. Of the three I liked Wolf the least. The best way to put it, is the course funnels your ball to the trouble. It's the most "dye" of the three and it's overly tough but s a whole the three Paiute designs are fun and playable as well as interesting. But more recently I've played Pound Ridge in NY, not far from the city. I won't even get into the price, but the Dye design is so penal that it simply isn't fun. Ice played it twice and it was no better the second time. My handicap got as low as a 3.8 this summer but the day at Pound Ridge there was no way I was breaking 90. I think I shot 96 and I actually played shortish tees (around 6500 if I remember right). I was paired with two guys who probably shoot 90 on a normal day and they were so ready to leave by the 13th hole. A bad shot here isn't just in trouble, it's a lost ball. Not just on the tee, but even into greens. Once you reach the greens they're so contrived with massive humps and bumps. He uses elevation in a way that makes no sense to me. Those two guys I played with were there to celebrate graduation from business school. I felt terrible watching the course beat them up. AT a certain point it's no longer a challenge it's just frustrating. Compare that to a course like Longaberger in Ohio. Arthur Hills took this phenomenal piece of land and built a big grand layout that is long tough and a real test. But it's not a grind. As a signe digit I can battle to break 80 and be paired with a 25 who can spray it a bit but never get discouraged. He realizes that it's ok to turn a less than perect drive into a 2-3 club longer approach. Not a lost ball. Id love to play more Hills designs, and will never seek out another Dye (but I'd definitely play sawgrass or Harbortown since they are in a class of their own).

[ruascott]

Originally Posted by PhilsRHman

I'm glad to see this thread. I played the Paiute courses in Vegas and enjoyed them all. Of the three I liked Wolf the least. The best way to put it, is the course funnels your ball to the trouble. It's the most "dye" of the three and it's overly tough but s a whole the three Paiute designs are fun and playable as well as interesting.

But more recently I've played Pound Ridge in NY, not far from the city. I won't even get into the price, but the Dye design is so penal that it simply isn't fun. Ice played it twice and it was no better the second time. My handicap got as low as a 3.8 this summer but the day at Pound Ridge there was no way I was breaking 90. I think I shot 96 and I actually played shortish tees (around 6500 if I remember right). I was paired with two guys who probably shoot 90 on a normal day and they were so ready to leave by the 13th hole. A bad shot here isn't just in trouble, it's a lost ball. Not just on the tee, but even into greens. Once you reach the greens they're so contrived with massive humps and bumps. He uses elevation in a way that makes no sense to me. Those two guys I played with were there to celebrate graduation from business school. I felt terrible watching the course beat them up.

AT a certain point it's no longer a challenge it's just frustrating.

Compare that to a course like Longaberger in Ohio. Arthur Hills took this phenomenal piece of land and built a big grand layout that is long tough and a real test. But it's not a grind. As a signe digit I can battle to break 80 and be paired with a 25 who can spray it a bit but never get discouraged. He realizes that it's ok to turn a less than perect drive into a 2-3 club longer approach. Not a lost ball.

Id love to play more Hills designs, and will never seek out another Dye (but I'd definitely play sawgrass or Harbortown since they are in a class of their own).

I have played a LOT of Dye designs, as I'm from central Indiana where it seems he has built half or more of the courses that exist here, and he still lives in Carmel on Crooked Stick. I've also played a fair share of his resort courses in my travels.

I will say this...there is a WIDE variance in the difficulty level of his courses. You always know that you are on Dye course, but some are very, very playable, and others are borderline ridiculous.

In defense of the guy, he will say that it all comes down to what the owner of the course requests. With courses like Pound Ridge and French Lick, they wanted courses that were built to be ridiculously difficult tests of the game, and as such I can't see how many amateurs get much enjoyment out of playing them.

But he also has built some great courses that are challenging but certainly playable. One that is at the top of my list is the Ocean Course at Kiawah. I've played it probably 10 times, and I'd play it every day of my life if I could. The fariways and landing areas are very wide....you can run the ball onto most every green, save a few, and there are amble bail out areas around the greens...though you may have a tough pitch/chip. The difficulty all comes in what tees you pick, becuase I think it ranges from like 5000-7600 yards...and the wind is always something to consider. If you do spray the ball wildly off line, you'll be in the sand dunes. But there is nothing unfair about that course. If anything, I have found some of his older designs like Harbour Town more unfair, because the greens are so small and the fairways so tight.

I think many people only play Dye courses that are resort courses, and typcially very high end at that. So in an attempt to justify the $200+ rounds, they have Dye build extreme courses, and he is happy to do so. But if you play some of his more "regular" public courses, or private country clubs, you'll find that those are very, very playable....

Here in the Indy area courses like Brickyard Crossing, Plum Creek, The Fort, Woodland CC, Crooked Stick, Bridgewater, Purdue Univ course....if any of you played any of those tracks you'd find a very playable, very enjoyable course, that challenges you but is beyond fair.

[cart7]

I've only played Tamarack and Yorktown, both in Illinois.  Both are much older Dye courses.  Yorktown is a par 3 course.  Both are nicer courses that are interesting and challenging but hardly what I'd call unfair or overly difficult.

[beisenhauer]

Yorktown was designed by Bob Goalby; not sure about Tamarack.

I've played two Dye courses, once each within a month or two a few years ago. I played the Sycamore course at Eagle Creek in Indianapolis and the Kampen course at Purdue University. I was having two very different ball-striking days, so my comparison might be a little colored by that. The Sycamore course seemed challenging, but very fair. With the exception of two holes it wasn't "tricked out" or anything. I was pull-hooking everything when I played the Kampen course, and the tees I chose were about 800 yards longer, so it seemed much more difficult. Certainly it has more of Dye's famous waste areas/bunkers.

[Stewie007]

I played a Dye course in the Colleton River Plantation. Its a Private club, so I only get to play with the in-laws when we visit Hilton Head. This particular course doesn't sport narrow fairways, or anything of the sort. He does enjoy the use of sand, and that increased the difficulty substantially. However, I found the course very enjoyable, even for my horrible game both times I played. I intend to go back next year and play it again, as well as the nearby Nicklaus course (which has a completely ridiculous amount of sand and is said to be far more difficult than the Dye).  The course was designed and then built opening in 1999.

As other(s) have said, the design isn't completely in the hands of the designer. The folks that contract the job have a say in difficulty level and the overall kind of course they are looking for. Obviously, the folks at the Colleton River Plantation wanted something that was playable for golfers of all abilities.