Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
iacas

Pete Dye, Overrated

89 posts in this topic

Thoughts? Is Pete Dye over-rated as a golf course designer?

I like Sawgrass. But that's about it. I think his earlier courses in general tend to be better than his later ones.

We played the National Club Pro at French Lick's Pete Dye course this year, and it was stupid. Pete Dye seems to confuse "unfair" with "difficult." I've never seen so many good shots get punished, and by "good" I mean "good" - these weren't shots that were pulled or pushed slightly, etc. Some of the fairways were literally eight yards wide and SLOPED quite a bit.

I think he's completely over-rated, and incapable of building a golf course that can be enjoyed.

Again, I'm speaking more of the past 20 years or so, maybe 15, and I've not played even the majority of 'em, but I've seen or walked or played a healthy percentage.
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Sign up (or log in) today! It's free (and you won't see this ad anymore)!

Sign up (or log in) today! It's free (and you won't see this ad anymore)!

Pete Dye seems to confuse "unfair" with "difficult." I've never seen so many good shots get punished, and by "good" I mean "good" - these weren't shots that were pulled or pushed slightly, etc. Some of the fairways were literally eight yards wide and SLOPED quite a bit.

This has been my impression of the Dye courses I have played.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I forgot - the Jones brothers may be more over-rated. Or Fazio. But it's a close race, and I think Dye may be in the lead.

Shame, too. I really like Sawgrass.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Sawgrass was fun, and the valley course played well. Its a bitch to walk here in FL. If you dont pull a Tiger and spray your drive, the "valley" part of it kinda funnels your ball into the fairway. A few of this courses in Myrtle are fun, but then again, a typical single digit handicap shouldn't be making a 9 from the fairway on a par 4.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Dye's earliest courses were rather modest in length (consider Harbour Town and pre-2000s Sawgrass), and stood out for the strategic challenge they presented in contrast to the Robert Trent Jones "long, narrow, and straight" model of championship golf (think Hazeltine and Firestone). As was the case with the elder Jones later on in his career, Dye's work has become so oriented on testing the top 1% of golfers that it absolutely alienates the other 99% of us.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Harbour Town, yes, another good early Dye course. It really is just his courses in the past 15 or so years.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Dye Courses I've played. List found on wikipedia... there may be more?

- Carlton Oaks Country Club (Dunes Course)[4] - Santee, CA.
Ugly, can't stand it. That being said, Its hard, but not tricked up hard. It just doesn't fit my eye and I just haven't got the hang of the place yet. Holds first stage PGA QSchool.

- La Quinta Resort and Club (Dunes Course) - La Quinta [5]
- La Quinta Resort and Club (Mountain Course) - La Quinta [6]
- The Westin Mission Hills Resort & Spa (South Course)- Ranch Mirage
All three resort style courses, so not hard at all and quite fun to play!

- PGA West (Stadium Course) - La Quinta
In my top 3 golf courses I've played. PGA QSchool final stage. I would not consider this tricked up, just a good challenge.

- Lost Canyons Golf Club (Shadow Course) - Simi Valley
- Lost Canyons Golf Club (Sky Course) - Simi Valley
Garbage, just not fun. Everyone around here calls this place Lost Balls cause you're gonna lose a grip. These are the only two of the bunch that I'd consider more "unfair" then "difficult".

- Paiute Golf Club Resort (Snow Mountain, Sun Mountain and Wolf Courses) - Las Vegas [34]
Have played all three. Snow and Sun are quite nice and fun. Wolf is the upper class of the three in terms of design and difficulty. I really enjoyed them all. It helps that they are on an Indian reservation and get as much water as necessary to keep them in perfect condition.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mine opened in 1971, which originally was made for TRW employees. It is great and challenging and can be very long. Too bad some rich dude bought it last year and now might sell it to the city, which they plan on making it a park. Seriously how do you take a course that has hosted am tournaments and is always in digests top for Ohio into a park?

Not finalized yet, as the city would lose a ton of money in taxes if they do so.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The one thing I really dislike about his courses is something you mentioned already: how you can hit a great shot and still get royally screwed from it. Aesthetically, his courses look really nice but they annoy me.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Very overrated. I like Sawgrass and Harbor Town, just based on what I have seen/heard about them. My favorite architect is Donald Ross.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Supposedly Maple Creek in Indianapolis is his first ever 18 hole course. I enjoyed it when I played there and did not find it to be extraordinarily difficult, even at my level. I played with a friend who typically shoots in the 80s and he did fairly well (though it was a new course for him too).

http://www.maplecreekgc.com/
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People either love or hate Dye courses. I guess I fall into the "hate" category. I really liked TPC Sawgrass, but the original layout is nothing like what you see today. It has been reworked a number of times because of player complaints (remember the quote: "It looks like they buried an elephant on the greens"?). I have also played Red Mountain Ranch in Arizona - The greens were all 3 or 4 level, so if you weren't on the right level, just mark down a three putt. Not a fun day.

Of all the designers, my favorite is Tom Fazio. His courses at Primm Valley at the Nevada/California border and at World Woods in Florida are a pleasure to play. I also like Arnold Palmer/Ed Seay designs, as it seems they are set up to be golfer friendly. A challenge for low hdcps, but not punative for higher hdcps.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't mind the occasional forced carry, but I think island greens are a bad idea. That's all I have to say about Pete Dye.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pete Dye started out designed decent but challenging layouts. He peaked at Sawgrass and has now turned into a mad scientist. Designing a course that is functionally unplayable doesn't make you a great designer, it just makes you a douche bag.

I played a Jones Jr. yesterday that was absolutely uninspiring but still very enjoyable.

I'm still trying to figure out how I feel about Nicklaus' designs. Some I like, others are terribad!
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I played Fowler's Mill in the Cleveland area and liked the design. It's one of his earlier works I think.

http://www.fowlersmillgc.com/sites/c...889&page;=49976

Never played anything he designed recently. I can afford them, but I can't bring myself to pay that much for his courses.

For those prices, I'd expect a caddie to be included, free lunch (and a well cooked one at that), free range balls, free course guide and all day play. And with all that, I still think it's overpriced.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I played a course in the Dominican Republic back in Fenbruary that was a Pete Dye design from 2008...although it was pretty, it was stupid. Standing in the fairway and you can\t see the top of the green, unless you have a caddie that knows the slopes/size/pin placement of the greens, it was stupid.

The coloured flags telling you pin position were useless because you couldn't even tell the shape of the green half the time.

Some of the fairways were narrow but not too bad, it were the greens that were a nightmare.

I shot 110 first round, 102 second round, and 92 third round.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0



  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • 2017 TST Partners

    PING Golf
    Leupold Golf
    Snell Golf
    Talamore Golf Resort
    Lowest Score Wins
  • Posts

    • He started off playing the first hole exactly how he should: fairway, 20-footer for birdie to the fat side of the green, tap-in par.
    • @iacas-Tho it is nice to be able to take your time and type out what you mean to say this is one of the downsides to a forum too-You have to respond to a whole bunch of crap and a person can get all of their thoughts out uninterrupted. If you were been sitting in a room with @natureboy and he started drawing that entirely stupid picture with the lines you could have cut him off and spared all of us the pain of having to watch him so badly miss the point. I bet @natureboy is still going to look at the response-And I bet he is still not going to see where he went wrong. But that is because he is just that way and he is unable to see how stupid his own posts are and how little they actually deal with golf swings. His stick drawing is exactly why you asked for a video-Even though he posted it after you asked. His errors and flaws and stupid thoughts would have been even more evident if he had actually tried to make a vid.
    • Or… golf is hard, and he got hot for awhile. Wouldn't be the first flash in the pan. We'll have to wait to see what the true version is. He could be quiet for ten years and then win a few majors.
    • That makes a great third bullet point. Or a first bullet point, bumping my two down.
    • This photo and the text above illustrate pretty well exactly why I and the entire moderation team is now done with you. The image fails on two levels: The center image is not representative of an actual good golf swing. The right hip is closer to the right foot in the center image, yet you maintain that it's farther away. Whether the second thing is done intentionally or accidentally I don't know. I don't care to know. But it's very representative of how you argue, and why you're now going to be prevented from arguing. You pervert arguments to the point where we're no longer discussing the golf swing. You get basic facts or concepts wrong (like when arguing about course rating, misunderstanding the radius vs. diameter in faulting the rating process for higher handicappers). You focus on some small thing - which often isn't even something anyone else has said - and lose sight of the forest or the big picture. You're not here to help golfers. You're here to "win" an argument, a goal that as yet is unmet, and you have to post absolute crap like the above to try to do it. I had a bit of free time this morning. So I responded to your last post in some detail. It, as one would expect, contains a number of typical @natureboy traits: cherry picking a photo while ignoring the concept, failure to understand basic points, perversion of the statements of others, putting words in the mouths of others, use of vague words like "a lot" (often in combination with the "putting words in the mouths of others), and hyper-focus on some small largely negligible point. Nobody else should waste their time to read the below, or open the spoiler and read that. It will not shed light on anything, it will not help you with your golf swing, and you will not glean any useful information. It exists simply as my last effort at illustrating to @natureboy a small part of the reason why we're tired of him… even though as I post it I know with certainty it too will fail. I gave you twenty warning points last night. It was made clear to you what you had to do, and you failed to do so, flaunting the requirement in several posts. The entire moderation team - @mvmac, @RandallT, @boogielicious, @jamo, @billchao, @nevets88, @mchepp, others - and myself have simply gotten sick and tired of your entire persona here. You're constantly and never-endingly arguing stuff to the point where you bastardize things so much you're no longer even talking about the golf swing, and you fail to comprehend or respond to what's written to you in response. You have two real choices once your current suspension is over: You can ignore these warnings, continue to be a belligerent arguer, and receive a final 50-point warning that will result in your permanent ban. You can avoid behaving in the manner that infuriates the entire moderation team. That will likely mean limiting the topics in which you post quite a bit, because though you fancy yourself to be capable of discussing the golf swing from a theoretical perspective, you've proven that you are not. Now, I want to be very clear about something. You're not being warned or "handled" because you disagree. You're being handled here because you contribute nothing positive. You're belligerent. You don't help people. You don't demonstrate anything. You pervert and distort topics in order to make a point that often has little or nothing to do with how people actually play golf. You're on a mission to "win" an argument, not to further the understanding. You speak as if you know and fail to ask questions, despite the holes in your logic and posts being constantly exposed as gaping. You quite often fail to read what's written, take a beat, and try to understand it. P.S. This requirement is anything but arbitrary. The list of reasons are long, the surface of which was only scratched in this post. Arbitrary would have been to say something like "to continue posting here you must dress up in a purple outfit and post a photo of yourself diving from a diving board into a pool of jello." Asking you to post a video illustrating your point is the opposite of arbitrary.
  • TST Blog Entries

  • Blog Entries

  • Today's Birthdays

    1. Catcher20
      Catcher20
      (27 years old)
    2. JD15
      JD15
      (52 years old)
  • Get Great Gear with Amazon