Rules question...loose impediment inside a hazard

[majorchamp]

I am reading through these Rules violations on golf.com

http://www.golf.com/golf/gallery/art...1119-6,00.html and this one in particular is about Paul Azinger

On the final hole of his first round, Zinger hit a shot from the shallows of a water hazard. Apparently, the future Ryder Cup captain had nudged a small rock out of the way when taking his stance, violating the rule prohibiting a player from moving loose impediments in a hazard.

So let me understand this..if my ball is sitting in a creek settled upon some dirt and tons of pebble rocks..and I get down there and get my stance and that dirt and/or rocks move because of the weight of my feet..its a penalty?

on another note..I do wonder if I incorrectly penalized myself in a college tournament a long time ago. I setup to my par putt on a par 3, and just as I took the club back the ball moved. I stopped, and tapped it in. I assessed myself a 1 stroke penalty (nobody in my group saw the ball move)..but did NOT move the ball back to its original position..which was only 1/4 inch away..but still. Should I have moved the ball back prior to completing my stroke?

[majorchamp]

another question...

http://www.golf.com/golf/gallery/art...1119-5,00.html

In golf, no person is allowed to give a player advice except for his own caddie.

I have always wondered this..you are playing and someone in the gallery says "Bryan, your hips are aimed left...also hit your 3 wood you can make it to the green"...is that a rules violation? I would imagine if its someone like your father or a friend, and this is proven I can see how it can be a violation..but if its general commentary by someone in the gallery (whether its your club championhip or the Masters) I can't see how that can hold up...or players could be getting penalized all day.

[out_in_30]

another question...

If Im not mistaken, information such as yardages are considered general knowledge and is ok to share with opponents. maybe not on the PGA but i am not sure about that. I have played in a tournament where my opponent has asked me if I wanted to know the yardage, and i asked him if that was ok or not, he said it was fine as long as he didnt recommend a club. as far as yardage goes tho its ok.

As for that random commentary from the sidelines, there is no way of stopping that from happening. no way would a player be penalized for some random joe spouting out "advice." Now maybe if the player went over and spoke with him and appeared to maybe take the knowledge into account. then it might be different. I am not 100% sure about this; golf has some really stupid rules. that is just my attempt at an educated inference. As for your putt a while back, I think the defining factor would be if you had grounded your putter or not. If you never grounded your putter there would be no penalty for the ball moving. This was an issue in the British open when it was so windy. Players werent grounding their club because the ball was oscilating so much and if it moved they would be assessed a penalty whereas if you never grounded your club there is no penalty for a ball moving. I think it was jack nicklaus who never grounded his club ever on any shot.

[Zeph]

As for your putt a while back, I think the defining factor would be if you had grounded your putter or not. If you never grounded your putter there would be no penalty for the ball moving. This was an issue in the British open when it was so windy. Players werent grounding their club because the ball was oscilating so much and if it moved they would be assessed a penalty whereas if you never grounded your club there is no penalty for a ball moving. I think it was jack nicklaus who never grounded his club ever on any shot.

True, but he should get a penalty from hitting the ball from the wrong spot, since he didn't move it back. If he had grounded the putter, that is also a penalty there.

As for the loose impediment, I think it is fair. You are allowed to take your stance, but not move around rocks and stuff so you can stand better.

[out_in_30]

True, but he should get a penalty from hitting the ball from the wrong spot, since he didn't move it back. If he had grounded the putter, that is also a penalty there.

that being said, how come players are allowed to dig into the sand when they are in a bunker?

[Fourputt]

I am reading through these Rules violations on golf.com

Azinger did not "nudge" the rock, he deliberately kicked it out from under his foot. If a rock settles in the act ot fairaly taking your stance, then there is no penalty. If you kick it out of the way then there is a penalty. I was forced to call the same penalty in one of our state tournaments this year.

Yes you should have moved the ball back to its original position. In playing from a wrong place you incurred a 2 stroke penalty, instead of just one stroke.

another question...

That is not a penalty. If you ask for advice, then you incur the penalty for a breach of Rule 8. If you offer another player such advice, you are also in breach of that rule. If anyone (a player or a spectator) offers you unsolicited advice, then you are not in breach, and you can even take the advice and use it without penalty.

[zeg]

Yes you should have moved the ball back to its original position. In playing from a wrong place you incurred a 2 stroke penalty, instead of just one stroke.

Yep, too bad he didn't just putt through. From 18-2b:

The ball must be replaced, unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.

Since he stopped, he should have put it back. Had he not done that, there'd have just been the one stroke penalty for moving it. Also, as mentioned above, if he hadn't grounded his club so the ball had not been addressed, it'd be different situation, with either no penalty if the wind (or something other than the player or an outside agency) had moved it, or the 2-stroke penalty for not replacing.

[majorchamp]

Yep, too bad he didn't just putt through. From 18-2b:

Yes, I called a penalty on myself because my putter was grounded when it moved. My brain is foggy, though, because I don't recall if it moved as my putter was in motion and I continued to knock it in...or if I stopped, thought about it..and then tapped it in.

I guess if I had stopped and not moved it back, I signed for a lower score on that hole then I should have (should have been a 5 I guess then a 4, since its 1 penalty for it moving, and 1 penalty for not moving it back...correct?) Oh well, long time ago but felt I did the right thing calling a penalty on myself when nobody else saw it...just might not have penalized myself enough haha

[RC]

On the putt that moved before you hit it... if you have not addressed the ball, and it moves then comes to rest in a new place, you hit it from from the new position with no penalty. There is no need to replace a ball on the green that has come to rest and then moved to a new position, even if closer to the hole -- as long as you have not attempted to mark its position or addressed the ball, or touched it unless in the process of marking its position. If you are marking your ball and it moves due to the processes of placing a marker, then you do move it back to its original spot without penalty. If you have addressed the ball by soling your club and it moves, then there is a penalty and you must replace the ball in its original position -- that is the way I understand the rules.

[zeg]

I guess if I had stopped and not moved it back, I signed for a lower score on that hole then I should have (should have been a 5 I guess then a 4, since its 1 penalty for it moving, and 1 penalty for not moving it back...correct?)

I wouldn't sweat it, the competition is long closed so you can't adjust it or DQ yourself any more

Also, it is a 1-stroke penalty for moving a ball that was at rest, and also a 2-stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place. However, Rule 18 (the "ball at rest moved" rule) has a general provision that if you fail to replace a ball when required, you only pay the 2-stroke penalty. It's important to remember that it's 2 strokes for the wrong place, since this can come up without a preceding penalty if, for example, your ball is moved by an outside agency. In that case, it'd be the same 2-stroke penalty if you didn't replace it.

[Fourputt]

It's important to remember that it's 2 strokes for the wrong place, since this can come up without a preceding penalty if, for example, your ball is moved by an outside agency. In that case, it'd be the same 2-stroke penalty if you didn't replace it.

A couple of notes to this. If you are unaware that the ball has been moved, then there is no penalty, even if it later becomes known.

18-1/3 Player Unaware Ball Moved by Outside Agency Does Not Replace Ball Q. In stroke play, a player’s ball was moved by an outside agency. Neither the player nor his caddie was aware that his ball had been moved, so the player played the ball without replacing it. He then learned that his ball had been moved. What is the ruling? A. As it was not known or virtually certain that the ball had been moved by an outside agency when the player played the ball, he proceeded properly and incurred no penalty – see the Note to Rule 18-1. (Revised)

One other note... Rule 18-1 requires that the ball be replaced (not dropped) on the spot where it was moved from. If that spot is not determinable, then the ball must be dropped as near as possible to that spot (Rule 20-3c). Even if you know that the ball has only been moved a couple of inches, if the exact spot is not known, then the ball must be dropped. The rule doesn't seem to allow for playing the ball as it lies, even if the point where it lies is the same point as where it will be dropped. Example: You are walking toward your ball, but are still 100 yards away when it is picked up by another person. You holler at him and he immediately drops the ball. Even though the ball is still very close to its original position, you don't know the exact spot so you can't replace it. It has defintely been moved, so Rule 20-3c says that it must be dropped, and as the player is the only person who is allowed to drop his ball (Rule 20-2a), he must do so before playing his next stroke. It may seem to be redundant, but I don't see any other way to proceed within the rules.