Driveable Par 4's

[Alex B]

only played 1 all year

What course is this? That hole looks awesome.

[sean_miller]

Personally, I'm not a fan of drivable par 4 holes unless there is a serious penalty for failure. Otherwise all they are is ego boosters which give the average player a false sense of accomplishment.

Why you gotta

on other people's ? Aren't you happy whenever you do it?

[Fourputt]

Why you gotta

A driveable par 4 with no risk isn't a par 4. Sorry if you don't like it, but that's a par 3.

If the worst thing that can happen is that I end up in a bunker, then I'm virtually guaranteed to make no worse than par. In that case, any time I don't make birdie, I feel like I've failed, and at my handicap, any legitimate par should feel good. Thus it ain't a par 4 unless 4 is a good score for the hole. I feel the same way about ~420 yard par 5 holes - they are also ego boosters. I don't have any problem with a course having such holes and calling them what ever they want, and if it makes you feel good to make par on such hole, then have at it. I prefer to feel like I've actually played good (or smart) golf to achieve that score. Maybe you think I'm too hard on myself, but as a 12 handicap, par is still a sign of achievement for me, and making birdie is a sign of excellence. Abnormally short and risk free holes don't meet my criteria for that. Anecdotal example: Last winter my course was rebuilding the tee boxes on one of our par 5 holes. As a result the hole was playing from a temp tee at only about 470 yards. I birdied it more than I parred it during that period. But I also adjusted the course par for my own purposes, so for my records I was play to a par 71 instead of a par 72.

[sean_miller]

A driveable par 4 with no risk isn't a par 4. Sorry if you don't like it, but that's a par 3.

So if you're playing a 300 yard par 4 that's not too penal, it's okay to mock you for anything more than a 3?!? If I played a 470 yard hole I'd "expect" to get more 4s than 5s, but unfortunately I don't have your skill level.

[Fourputt]

So if you're playing a 300 yard par 4 that's not too penal, it's okay to mock you for anything more than a 3?!? If I played a 470 yard hole I'd "expect" to get more 4s than 5s, but unfortunately I don't have your skill level.

I can't drive a 300 yard par hole unless it's downhill and downwind.... so that

would be a short par 4 for me. Don't try to put words in my mouth... I'm talking about holes which are drivable by the average player... the average player doesn't hit the ball much more than 220 - 230 yards. Why can't you just accept the fact that not everyone holds the same opinion as you do? Discussion boards would be pointless if that were the case.

[design]

Par 4's driven this year. (On the green or fringe)

338 yards to a green with water running directly along the right side and bunkers across the left. Trees directly in front of the green. The design intends for you to lay up along the fairway (which runs to the right side of the pond), then to pitch over the water to the green. Drove the ball to the center of the green and it rolled about 5' past the hole. Two putted for birdie. Slight wind at my back. High long draw.

320 yards straight on. Absolutely no risk for going after it. The hole is a bit of a joke. Landed the ball at the front of the green and it rolled to within 4" of the hole. Tap in Eagle.

(driven multiple times) 312 yards straight on. Very tight fairway with houses running along the right side and a mountain running along the left.

(driven multiple times) 290 yards downhill. This hole is a little trickier than it sounds because there is a pond directly in front of the green. If you hit a drive in the 250 yard range you risk rolling into that pond. You have to carry about 275 yards to clear the water.

(driven multiple times) 280 yards with a very slight dogleg left. The fairway is no wider than 15 yards at its widest point and there are thick trees running the entire way on each side. The fairway slopes pretty aggressively to the right and if you lay up you risk the ball rolling behind a tree. I honestly have not figured out how to play this hole. I typically hit a high draw over the green and chip back for birdie or par here. The green slopes heavily away from you so even if you lay up, you risk a tough pitch shot.

360 yards with a slight dogleg right. This fairway is extremely wide open. There is no risk at all for going for it here. The ground is usually hard this time of year so if you hit a fade to about 320 you have a chance of rolling it on. I got the ball up in the air on a high fade and let the wind do the rest of the work the one time I drove this green.

288 yards straight on with bunkers on each side of the green. I hit a low pull fade that landed in front of the green and rolled to 3' past the hole. Made the easy eagle.

(driven multiple times) 292 yards uphill. There is a large tree to the front left of the green preventing you from hitting a fade to the green. There is a large fairway bunker about 250 yards up so ideally you would carry the ball about 265-270 yards with a draw (or straight) and roll it to the green.

(driven multiple times) 265 yards straight on with bunkers to the left and right of the green as well as directly behind it. This is very narrow green only about 12' wide but fairly deep. I usually hit my 3wood here because if you go over the green you are in trouble.

410 yards downhill. Everything was working to my advantage here. I had a strong wind at my back, the fairways were rock hard, and I was hitting from an elevated tee box. My drive landed about 50 yards short of the green and rolled all the way to the fringe. While technically this isn't a driven green, I still putted from the fringe.

[Paradox]

What course is this? That hole looks awesome.

Mahan Manor in Winchester, KY

[sean_miller]

I can't drive a 300 yard par hole unless it's downhill and downwind.... so that

I try not to piss on other people's accomplishments. Having said that, I agree that at > 2500 feet, anything less than 250 yards is a long par 3.

[iacas]

A driveable par 4 with no risk isn't a par 4. Sorry if you don't like it, but that's a par 3.

Then you say...

Don't try to put words in my mouth... I'm talking about holes which are drivable by the average player... the average player doesn't hit the ball much more than 220 - 230 yards.

You're the only person to use the word "average." I don't think anyone else here is assuming a 220-yard hole is a "driveable par four." I'm fairly certain everyone here is talking about the 290-yard par fours, or the 335-yarders downhill, etc.

Sometimes all you need to make a driveable par four difficult is a very small green with some good slope to it. That doesn't have a whole bunch of "penal" stuff to it. Look at the 10th at Riviera. It's not super penal - but it has a small green with some good slope. The only one injecting words here is you, Fourputt, with the word "average." You're also the only person to specify 220-230 yard holes... everyone else here is talking about 270+ by my quick scan of the posts. FWIW, I'm a fan. I think they're a challenge when done properly and I love them on the PGA Tour, because they tend to be well designed and any time you can make those guys THINK, it's good for spectating. I remember a few years ago when Phil and Tiger battled at Doral and, I think it's the 13th hole that's driveable, and yet they both made bogey because they bailed out right. Good hole. Tiger's driven it and two-putted for birdie before, too.

[boogielicious]

They are fun to watch on tour, especially when they're a blind tee shot over trees or something. The only one I have played was 240 uphill (playing more like 260) but with very steep slopes off a small green (shaped like an inverted bowl). Only a perfect tee shots would stay on the green. Even chipping on was hard.

[saevel25]

in my years of drivable par 4's, i would say that there have been a few. I have hit the green twice and come close to the green a handful of times. Its really really tough to do

[Fourputt]

I can only think of one par four where I have actually driven the green, and that happened more than 15 years ago. It's some 325 yards, a bit downhill, and I one hopped the ball into the flagstick (that might be the farthest I ever carried a drive in my life). I was left with an 8 foot putt for eagle... which naturally I missed.

Over the years I've been near the greens on a few other par 4 holes (within 10-20 yards), but never as far as the front edge. Most of the courses I play simply don't offer those opportunities unless you can drive the ball 340 yards.

[jho786]

The seventh hole at my new club is the first course I've played with a driveable par 4. It is very difficult to land the ball on the green because of the deep bunkers in front of the green and the pot bunker behind it. Long and left is dead because of a very difficult pitch shot from rough or fescue. The hole plays 310 from the tips (blue) but I play the greens 1 ahead and is 290. It is also difficult to get the ball to fade off the slope at the same angle the green is set at. I usually hit a punch cut up the left side or a draw off the right bunkers that are 275 out depending on the wind. Birdie is never guaranteed because the green is fast with many slopes.